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Comm and marker beacon antennas

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n744bh(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

I'm thinking about building a comm dipole to put in  my Glasair and am curious as to the need for any toroids on the feedline.   I've got the dipole formula and an antenna analyzer for tuning it but the toroid  question is what I need an answer to.  I'll be mounting it in the interior  of the airplane and it will be at least 3' from my other comm  antenna.

  

 Next question...has anyone built a marker beacon  antenna?  As long as I'm building antennas I thought I might build one of  these also.

  

 Bill    

 Glasair SIIS-FT

   [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

Good Evening Bill,

  

 I have no knowledge concerning making an antenna, but may I ask why you  want to install a marker beacon antenna? Or, for that matter, why you want a  marker beacon receiver?

  

 The marker beacon is no longer a part of an ILS and very few enroute marker  beacons are still in service in the US National Airspace System. An IFR approved  GPS position can legally be used for any function that might otherwise require  gaining a position via a marker beacon.  

  

 It is not much more useful than would be a low frequency receiver that will  allow you to shoot a four course low frequency range approach. Save your time  and money and forget that ancient antique. It is no longer needed for any modern  approach.

  

 Many of the beacons that are still shown on approaches have been notamed  out of service because components are no longer available to repair the  units.

  

 Once again, the very few positions that might use a beacon can be more  easily and accurately located via an IFR approved GPS.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Downers Grove, Illinois

 Stearman N3977A

  

  In a message dated 12/31/2009 9:29:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,  n744bh(at)bellsouth.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I'm thinking about building a comm dipole to put    in my Glasair and am curious as to the need for any toroids on the    feedline.  I've got the dipole formula and an antenna analyzer for tuning    it but the toroid question is what I need an answer to.  I'll be mounting    it in the interior of the airplane and it will be at least 3' from my other    comm antenna.

    

   Next question...has anyone built a marker beacon    antenna?  As long as I'm building antennas I thought I might build one of    these also.

    

   Bill    

   Glasair SIIS-FT

 	  Quote: 	
		  



	
	


  [quote][b]

rjquillin

Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: KSEE

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

At 19:47 12/31/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The marker beacon is no longer a part of an ILS and very few enroute marker beacons are still in service in the US National Airspace System. An IFR approved GPS position can legally be used for any function that might otherwise require gaining a position via a marker beacon.  

  

 It is not much more useful than would be a low frequency receiver that will allow you to shoot a four course low frequency range approach. Save your time and money and forget that ancient antique. It is no longer needed for any modern approach. 	


 I won't disagree, but the LOC-D approach at my home 'drome, KSEE, with a FM, allows descent from 2700 to 1580.

 So, lacking that approach certified GPS, it -can- still be useful...



 Ron Q.    [quote][b]

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

RST has an antenna kit that supplies the formula for what you want to do as well as the instructions for installing in a glass airframe and the toroids you need.  You can gather all this yourself if you want to go to the trouble, the only difficult thing to find are the torroids but they are out there and someone will know where to get them.  

Tim  

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hibbing

 Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:22 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas  

  

     

I'm thinking about building a comm dipole to put in my Glasair and am curious as to the need for any toroids on the feedline.  I've got the dipole formula and an antenna analyzer for tuning it but the toroid question is what I need an answer to.  I'll be mounting it in the interior of the airplane and it will be at least 3' from my other comm antenna.  

    

   

    

Next question...has anyone built a marker beacon antenna?  As long as I'm building antennas I thought I might build one of these also.  

    

   

    

Bill      

    

Glasair SIIS-FT  

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n744bh(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

Bob and Ron,  

 Thanks for the info.  I guess I probably knew  that but thought that since the audio panel already had a MB rcvr in it I could  build an el cheapo antenna.  I know I'm not willing to spend any money on  trying to receive an obsolete system.  I've decided to splurge and put in a  second comm radio/gps so that's why I've got an audio panel now...didn't need it  with just one comm/gps.  Well, actually I'm putting in a bit  more.

  

 Bill  

 [quote]   ---

dsvs(at)ca.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

Bill, The market beacon antenna is 40 inches of copper foil or the sane length of coax with the shield removed. Position it for to aft and horizontal and it will work fine. Mine is in a glass wing tip on my RV  

DonVS    

RV7 flying  

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hibbing

 Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:22 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas  

  

  

     

I'm thinking about building a comm dipole to put in my Glasair and am curious as to the need for any toroids on the feedline.  I've got the dipole formula and an antenna analyzer for tuning it but the toroid question is what I need an answer to.  I'll be mounting it in the interior of the airplane and it will be at least 3' from my other comm antenna.  

    

   

    

Next question...has anyone built a marker beacon antenna?  As long as I'm building antennas I thought I might build one of these also.  

    

   

    

Bill      

    

Glasair SIIS-FT  

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

Good Evening Ron,

  

 That particular approach was what got me interested in the current status  of marker beacons.

  

 A few of years ago, I wanted to shoot that approach, but the marker  beacon was listed as being out of service so the minima was very high. I checked  with the local FEDS and was told that it was highly unlikely that the fan marker  would ever be returned to service as they were having trouble finding parts for  the repair. 

  

 I had an IFR approved GPS, but under the AIM interpretation of that time,  substitution of a GPS measurement was not approved. (That interpretation in  the AIM has since been changed) There was no intersection listed to be used in  place of the Fan Marker. I requested that an intersection be named so that we  could use that intersection in lieu of the fan marker. That intersection was  then designated so under the old AIM interpretation we could use the GPS in  lieu of the fan marker. I asked whether or not a radar fix from the tower could  be used in lieu of the marker. I was told that such use was dependent on whether  or not the particular controller who was working that position was radar  qualified. The last statement was NOT agreed to by all of the FEDs with whom I  spoke. 

  

 The last time I was at KSEE was last spring for the Beechcraft Heritage  Museum spring board meeting and the fan marker was still inoperative, but with  the new intersection available, there was no question as to whether or not the  GPS could be used. 

  

 Is that marker beacon now back in service?

  

 I would be very interested in any other example within the US National  Airspace System where a marker beacon is still required and a GPS cannot be  substituted. I think we can get such a situation rectified if we  try.  It worked at your home drome! <G>

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 12/31/2009 11:06:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,  rjquillin(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  At 19:47 12/31/2009, you wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  The marker beacon is no longer a      part of an ILS and very few enroute marker beacons are still in service in      the US National Airspace System. An IFR approved GPS position can legally be      used for any function that might otherwise require gaining a position via a      marker beacon.  

 

It is not much more useful than would be      a low frequency receiver that will allow you to shoot a four course low      frequency range approach. Save your time and money and forget that ancient      antique. It is no longer needed for any modern approach. 	


I    won't disagree, but the LOC-D approach at my home 'drome, KSEE, with a FM,    allows descent from 2700 to 1580.

So, lacking that approach certified GPS,    it -can- still be useful...



Ron Q.  	  Quote: 	
		  



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  [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:04 am Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

At 09:21 PM 12/31/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I'm thinking about building a comm dipole to put in my Glasair and am curious as to the need for any toroids on the feedline.  I've got the dipole formula and an antenna analyzer for tuning it but the toroid question is what I need an answer to.  I'll be mounting it in the interior of the airplane and it will be at least 3' from my other comm antenna. 	


   The toroids add no value. Install and cut to

   lowest SWR at your center-frequency of interest.

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 Next question...has anyone built a marker beacon antenna?  As long as I'm building antennas I thought I might build one of these also. 	


   Marker beacons are so strong that a wet string

   will nearly suffice. Hook a 40' piece of 22AWG

   wire into the antenna connector and tape it to

   the inside of the fuselage in as "strung out

   straight" as possible. But GPS offers better

   identification of the markers. Many markers

   are not being repaired as they crap out.



 

        Bob . . .    [quote][b]

rjquillin

Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: KSEE

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

Some interesting history, thanks Bob.



 I just pulled up the current LOC-D approach chart.

 GRIGG FM is still on the chart but seems to lack any information identifying it as an intersection on the chart,

 as do both SAMOS and BARET the IAF and FAF's.

 However, lighting up my 480 sim, I find it is in the DB as an intersection.



 I flew the approach a few months ago in a non-gps PA-22; and GRIGG was indeed, in service.



 Ron Q.



 At 23:33 12/31/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com



 Good Evening Ron,

  

 That particular approach was what got me interested in the current status of marker beacons.

  

 A few of years ago, I wanted to shoot that approach, but the marker beacon was listed as being out of service so the minima was very high. I checked with the local FEDS and was told that it was highly unlikely that the fan marker would ever be returned to service as they were having trouble finding parts for the repair. 

  

 I had an IFR approved GPS, but under the AIM interpretation of that time, substitution of a GPS measurement was not approved. (That interpretation in the AIM has since been changed) There was no intersection listed to be used in place of the Fan Marker. I requested that an intersection be named so that we could use that intersection in lieu of the fan marker. That intersection was then designated so under the old AIM interpretation we could use the GPS in lieu of the fan marker. I asked whether or not a radar fix from the tower could be used in lieu of the marker. I was told that such use was dependent on whether or not the particular controller who was working that position was radar qualified. The last statement was NOT agreed to by all of the FEDs with whom I spoke. 

  

 The last time I was at KSEE was last spring for the Beechcraft Heritage Museum spring board meeting and the fan marker was still inoperative, but with the new intersection available, there was no question as to whether or not the GPS could be used. 

  

 Is that marker beacon now back in service?

  

 I would be very interested in any other example within the US National Airspace System where a marker beacon is still required and a GPS cannot be substituted. I think we can get such a situation rectified if we try.  It worked at your home drome! <G>

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob[b]

bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: Comm and marker beacon antennas

Good Morning Ron,

  

 Glad to hear they found the parts! Took a couple of years though. 

  

 I have been trying to research the necessity of having a marker beacon  receiver and have been able to find very few places where it serves any purpose  at all. There are several that are colocated with an NDB or where a DME distance  can be used. Those approaches, generally localizer approaches, would need one of  the following to shoot the approach. A DME, ADF, marker beacon receiver,  IFR approved GPS, or a fix from a controller who is qualified to give that RADAR  fix.

  

 They were removed as a requirement for ILS approaches several years ago.  Many are still in service, but they are no longer required to be used. It is  nice to be able to check the glide path intercept altitude at some sort of fix,  but such a requirement does not exist in the routine US regulatory requirements.  Some pilot examiners may not like it, but that is the way it goes!  <G>

  

 It's kinda like timing an approach. Fun to see if an applicant does so, but  VERY rarely needed!

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 1/1/2010 9:53:21 A.M. Central Standard Time,  rjquillin(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Some interesting history, thanks Bob.



I just pulled up the    current LOC-D approach chart.

GRIGG FM is still on the chart but seems to    lack any information identifying it as an intersection on the chart,

as do    both SAMOS and BARET the IAF and FAF's.

However, lighting up my 480 sim, I    find it is in the DB as an intersection.



I flew the approach a few    months ago in a non-gps PA-22; and GRIGG was indeed, in service.



Ron    Q.



At 23:33 12/31/2009, you wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  From:      BobsV35B(at)aol.com



Good      Evening Ron,

 

That particular approach was what got me      interested in the current status of marker beacons.

 

A few of      years ago, I wanted to shoot that approach, but the marker beacon was listed      as being out of service so the minima was very high. I checked with the      local FEDS and was told that it was highly unlikely that the fan marker      would ever be returned to service as they were having trouble finding parts      for the repair. 

 

I had an IFR approved GPS, but under the AIM      interpretation of that time, substitution of a GPS measurement was not      approved. (That interpretation in the AIM has since been changed) There was      no intersection listed to be used in place of the Fan Marker. I requested      that an intersection be named so that we could use that intersection in lieu      of the fan marker. That intersection was then designated so under the old      AIM interpretation we could use the GPS in lieu of the fan marker. I asked      whether or not a radar fix from the tower could be used in lieu of the      marker. I was told that such use was dependent on whether or not the      particular controller who was working that position was radar qualified. The      last statement was NOT agreed to by all of the FEDs with whom I spoke.      

 

The last time I was at KSEE was last spring for the Beechcraft      Heritage Museum spring board meeting and the fan marker was still      inoperative, but with the new intersection available, there was no question      as to whether or not the GPS could be used. 

 

Is that marker      beacon now back in service?

 

I would be very interested in any      other example within the US National Airspace System where a marker beacon      is still required and a GPS cannot be substituted. I think we can get such a      situation rectified if we try.  It worked at your home drome!      <G>

 

Happy Skies,

 

Old Bob



	
	


  [quote][b]

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