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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

I am laying out my “Budget” RV-8A panel and have a transponder question. And yes I know this is the -10 list but I think I still have privileges here.  

I  am unclear what is the lowest priced Garmin Transponder that will ultimately work with ADS-B and other traffic warning systems.   

I understand that the GTX-330 is their top of the line and is IFR certified but will the GTX-237 work with things like Navworx and TIS? It does not appear to be the case.  

   

Thanks,  

Robin  

   

Phase 1 of Panel design (~$30K):  

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01CA8BC0.1E398BF0[/img]  

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

Robin, the 330 is the only one that does Mode-S tis, and

therefore would be the only one that you could use with

NavWorx Composite-TIS function.  If you buy a cheaper

one without Mode-S, you'll only get ADS-B targets.

With the 330, you can get either, via their box...assuming

the G900 uses the same standard interface they use

for other things.



Tim



Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am laying out my “Budget” RV-8A panel and have a transponder question. 

 And yes I know this is the -10 list but I think I still have privileges 

 here.

 

 I  am unclear what is the lowest priced Garmin Transponder that will 

 ultimately work with ADS-B and other traffic warning systems.

 

 I understand that the GTX-330 is their top of the line and is IFR 

 certified but will the GTX-237 work with things like Navworx and TIS? It 

 does not appear to be the case.

 

  

 

 Thanks,

 

 Robin

 

  

 

 Phase 1 of Panel design (~$30K):

 

 8A Panel 1 Concept.jpg

 

 Concept 1.5.jpg

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

Keep in mind that a 330 locks you into the 1090ES standard for ADSB, 

while it looks like UAT will continue to be a more flexible and robust 

system. If you want to keep options open, buy a low end Mode A/C 

transponder for now. BTW, there is no such thing as IFR transponder. 

They all have to meet a single TSO to be legal to use in aircraft. As 

long as you avoid certain airspace, it is still legal to fly IFR with no 

transponder. Might get some ATC complaints, however.



Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Robin, the 330 is the only one that does Mode-S tis, and

 therefore would be the only one that you could use with

 NavWorx Composite-TIS function.  If you buy a cheaper

 one without Mode-S, you'll only get ADS-B targets.

 With the 330, you can get either, via their box...assuming

 the G900 uses the same standard interface they use

 for other things.

 

 Tim

 

 

 

 Robin Marks wrote:

> I am laying out my “Budget” RV-8A panel and have a transponder 

> question. And yes I know this is the -10 list but I think I still have 

> privileges here.

>

> I  am unclear what is the lowest priced Garmin Transponder that will 

> ultimately work with ADS-B and other traffic warning systems.

>

> I understand that the GTX-330 is their top of the line and is IFR 

> certified but will the GTX-237 work with things like Navworx and TIS? 

> It does not appear to be the case.

>

>  

>

> Thanks,

>

> Robin

>

>  

>

> Phase 1 of Panel design (~$30K):

>

> 8A Panel 1 Concept.jpg

>

> Concept 1.5.jpg

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

I wouldn't say that a 330 locks you into anything, really.

It is about the best way to get Mode-S TIS right now, but

you don't get the ES part unless you buy the ES upgrade

for something like $1200.  So in actuality, it would give

you the flexibility to go ES as your "OUT" for ADS-B if

you needed to, although for not much more money you could

go with a UAT and feed the Wx data to an onboard device.



You're right, for now you could get a low-end Mode C

transponder and save some money, but if you go with a 330

you'll have TIS right now, and, the transponder won't be

obsoleted by the ADS-B stuff coming forward.  I know Mode

S is "going away", but the timeframes are still a ways

out there....and look at how VOR's, LORAN, and things like

that were also supposed to be "going away".  So really, what

it comes down to is, if you're really trying to save every

dollar you can, and you don't have any care for Mode S TIS,

then go ahead and just buy a 327 or something.  But, if you

buy a 330, you can get Mode S TIS today, and that same box

will work fine for you going forward, whether you choose

a UAT or go the ES route.  What I don't have a clue about

is if the 327 is going to have any upgrade path to ES...and

if it doesn't, it may be safer to just go the 330 route.

The added cost isn't in extreme dollars.



Also, just today I was watching Mode S TIS targets in the MSP

area coming through the NavWorx ADS600 ADS-B receiver....it

can take GTX330 Mode S Targets and output them to your device,

along with outputting TIS-B targets.  So with something like

that, it gives some benefit to having either system.  The one

thing better would be active traffic, but to really get a

good system that gives bearing, range, and altitude to

"intruders", you're going to spend maybe 5X or 6X the price,

and have to do some real good top and bottom fin antennas.



Tim

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Keep in mind that a 330 locks you into the 1090ES standard for ADSB, 

 while it looks like UAT will continue to be a more flexible and robust 

 system. If you want to keep options open, buy a low end Mode A/C 

 transponder for now. BTW, there is no such thing as IFR transponder. 

 They all have to meet a single TSO to be legal to use in aircraft. As 

 long as you avoid certain airspace, it is still legal to fly IFR with no 

 transponder. Might get some ATC complaints, however.

 

 Tim Olson wrote:

> 

>

> Robin, the 330 is the only one that does Mode-S tis, and

> therefore would be the only one that you could use with

> NavWorx Composite-TIS function.  If you buy a cheaper

> one without Mode-S, you'll only get ADS-B targets.

> With the 330, you can get either, via their box...assuming

> the G900 uses the same standard interface they use

> for other things.

>

> Tim

>

> Robin Marks wrote:

>> I am laying out my “Budget” RV-8A panel and have a transponder 

>> question. And yes I know this is the -10 list but I think I still 

>> have privileges here.

>>

>> I  am unclear what is the lowest priced Garmin Transponder that will 

>> ultimately work with ADS-B and other traffic warning systems.

>>

>> I understand that the GTX-330 is their top of the line and is IFR 

>> certified but will the GTX-237 work with things like Navworx and TIS? 

>> It does not appear to be the case.

>>

>>  

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Robin

>>

>>  

>>

>> Phase 1 of Panel design (~$30K):

>>

>> 8A Panel 1 Concept.jpg

>>

>> Concept 1.5.jpg

>>

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

All nice benefits, which also carry the price of anyone and everyone

that wants to track where you go being able to, because your Mode S

code is unique to your aircraft, regardless of VFR/IFR status. But if

you don't mind, you can see the same thing the controllers see on

radar, with a greater time lag, already 6 secs behind when it shows on

the scope. I've flown from St Paul to EAU in a TIS equipped aircraft.

IIRC it stopped supplying traffic about 50 miles east of St Paul, at

outer range of MSP radar. Maybe if I were more used to it I'd want it.



On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I wouldn't say that a 330 locks you into anything, really.

 It is about the best way to get Mode-S TIS right now, but

 you don't get the ES part unless you buy the ES upgrade

 for something like $1200.  So in actuality, it would give

 you the flexibility to go ES as your "OUT" for ADS-B if

 you needed to, although for not much more money you could

 go with a UAT and feed the Wx data to an onboard device.



 You're right, for now you could get a low-end Mode C

 transponder and save some money, but if you go with a 330

 you'll have TIS right now, and, the transponder won't be

 obsoleted by the ADS-B stuff coming forward.  I know Mode

 S is "going away", but the timeframes are still a ways

 out there....and look at how VOR's, LORAN, and things like

 that were also supposed to be "going away".  So really, what

 it comes down to is, if you're really trying to save every

 dollar you can, and you don't have any care for Mode S TIS,

 then go ahead and just buy a 327 or something.  But, if you

 buy a 330, you can get Mode S TIS today, and that same box

 will work fine for you going forward, whether you choose

 a UAT or go the ES route.  What I don't have a clue about

 is if the 327 is going to have any upgrade path to ES...and

 if it doesn't, it may be safer to just go the 330 route.

 The added cost isn't in extreme dollars.



 Also, just today I was watching Mode S TIS targets in the MSP

 area coming through the NavWorx ADS600 ADS-B receiver....it

 can take GTX330 Mode S Targets and output them to your device,

 along with outputting TIS-B targets.  So with something like

 that, it gives some benefit to having either system.  The one

 thing better would be active traffic, but to really get a

 good system that gives bearing, range, and altitude to

 "intruders", you're going to spend maybe 5X or 6X the price,

 and have to do some real good top and bottom fin antennas.



 Tim

 Kelly McMullen wrote:

>

> 

>

> Keep in mind that a 330 locks you into the 1090ES standard for ADSB, while

> it looks like UAT will continue to be a more flexible and robust system. If

> you want to keep options open, buy a low end Mode A/C transponder for now.

> BTW, there is no such thing as IFR transponder. They all have to meet a

> single TSO to be legal to use in aircraft. As long as you avoid certain

> airspace, it is still legal to fly IFR with no transponder. Might get some

> ATC complaints, however.

>

> Tim Olson wrote:

>>

>> 

>>

>> Robin, the 330 is the only one that does Mode-S tis, and

>> therefore would be the only one that you could use with

>> NavWorx Composite-TIS function.  If you buy a cheaper

>> one without Mode-S, you'll only get ADS-B targets.

>> With the 330, you can get either, via their box...assuming

>> the G900 uses the same standard interface they use

>> for other things.

>>

>> Tim

>>

>>

>>

>> Robin Marks wrote:

>>>

>>> I am laying out my “Budget” RV-8A panel and have a transponder question.

>>> And yes I know this is the -10 list but I think I still have privileges

>>> here.

>>>

>>> I  am unclear what is the lowest priced Garmin Transponder that will

>>> ultimately work with ADS-B and other traffic warning systems.

>>>

>>> I understand that the GTX-330 is their top of the line and is IFR

>>> certified but will the GTX-237 work with things like Navworx and TIS? It

>>> does not appear to be the case.

>>>

>>>

>>> Thanks,

>>>

>>> Robin

>>>

>>>

>>> Phase 1 of Panel design (~$30K):

>>>

>>> 8A Panel 1 Concept.jpg

>>>

>>> Concept 1.5.jpg

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:57 am Post subject: Transponder Question

Hi TIme, 

 My wife, Ruth and I were RV10 builders but sold our empennage a little over a year ago, after getting your axle kit. We had to regroup because our farm here isn't selling yet, but it is a money- maker and we are sure it will. We may get a moslty done RV-10 when we sell.We see lots of RV ers when we fly the 79 Tiger we bought up to Independence for lunch all the time, from Eugene, Oregon. 

  

 We bought this low-time Tiger last year and put in a 430 WAAS and a GMX200.( Also bought a 696 which we love) This year we had a GTX330 installed, along with a PMA700 audio panel when our transponder went out near Gorman in Calif. We love it. At least it shows the traffic vectors for aircraft in the vicinity of busy airspace, and it can be upgraded later..hopefully by someone who buys our Tiger after the farm sells, so we can upgrade our plane. We want to fly all  ver when we move to Ohio near wife's brother. We keep reading about all your flying  adventures, and are jealous. As long as we have this farm we have to work in the summer,selling produce at the Farmers' market, and ony have time for short trips. Oh well..patience.. 

Talk to you later Tim, and thanks for all your input. 

Brian and Ruth 



---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:34 am Post subject: Transponder Question

Yeah, I was wondering how that Tiger was treating you.  Do you know

how they are on grass?  I'm looking for a time builder for Andrea now

that she's got her certificate, and I was thinking RV7A/9A, but maybe

a Tiger wouldn't be so bad if it can handle grass.



Well, hope you have good luck selling the farm eventually!

Tim

cloudvalley(at)comcast.net wrote:

[quote] Hi TIme,

 

  My wife, Ruth and I were RV10 builders but sold our empennage a little 

 over a year ago, after getting your axle kit. We had to regroup because 

 our farm here isn't selling yet, but it is a money- maker and we are 

 sure it will. We may get a moslty done RV-10 when we sell.We see lots of 

 RV ers when we fly the 79 Tiger we bought up to Independence for lunch 

 all the time, from Eugene, Oregon.

 

  

 

  We bought this low-time Tiger last year and put in a 430 WAAS and a 

 GMX200.( Also bought a 696 which we love) This year we had a GTX330 

 installed, along with a PMA700 audio panel when our transponder went out 

 near Gorman in Calif. We love it. At least it shows the traffic vectors 

 for aircraft in the vicinity of busy airspace, and it can be upgraded 

 later...hopefully by someone who buys our Tiger after the farm sells, so 

 we can upgrade our plane. We want to fly all  ver when we move to Ohio 

 near wife's brother. We keep reading about all your flying  adventures, 

 and are jealous. As long as we have this farm we have to work in the 

 summer,selling produce at the Farmers' market, and ony have time for 

 short trips. Oh well..patience..

 

 Talk to you later Tim, and thanks for all your input.

 

 Brian and Ruth

 

 

 ---

lbgjb10

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Transponder Question

didn't realize that 330 worked with ADS-B, thought it was only S mode.  Does my 18 month old 330 have that capacity??  does it need different antenna??  upgrade??  larry

_________________
Larry and Gayle N104LG

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

It doesn't.....but Navworx can receive via arinc from the 330 and mix  

that mode s with their ads-b to send to your display, depending on  

your avionics choices and configuration.

Tim





On Jan 3, 2010, at 3:57 PM, "lbgjb10" <lbgjb(at)gnt.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 didn't realize that 330 worked with ADS-B, thought it was only S  

 mode.  Does my 18 month old 330 have that capacity??  does it need  

 different antenna??  upgrade??  larry



 --------

 Larry and Gayle N104LG





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79930#279930

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

I think you do need an additional antenna 4' away from the Transponder

antenna. About $110.00 from Navworx. I forgot what type of antenna but

it's a common aviation antenna. I plan the add the Navworx to two ships

so I will figure it out sooner or later (most likely later).



Robin



 

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

It's just a normal shark-fin Transponder antenna.   One wire.   Oh and  

you'll add a GPS antenna.  On mine I put the GPS antenna under the  

vertical stab fairing, since I don't consider this as "critical to  

navigation".   You can feed GPS in to the box from some other source,  

but the requirements of that GPS spec are pretty stringent, per ads-b  

requirements, so I figured the simple way was to just use the built-in  

GPS.



The active traffic systems use like 4 wires for the antenna, or  

something like that, and the blade is much larger.

The antenna for Ads-b is smaller and mounts on the belly.

Tim



On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:53 PM, "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 I think you do need an additional antenna 4' away from the Transponder

 antenna. About $110.00 from Navworx. I forgot what type of antenna but

 it's a common aviation antenna. I plan the add the Navworx to two  

 ships

 so I will figure it out sooner or later (most likely later).



 Robin

 --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

Officially you need 6 ft between your UAT antenna and the Garmin

transponder. 4 ft may work. UAT antenna is a DME antenna. 



--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

Tim;

You mention the shark fin transponder, is that a specific requirement or 

does any transponder antenna work the same?

Thanks!



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:13 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Transponder Question



[quote] 



 It's just a normal shark-fin Transponder antenna.   One wire.   Oh and 

 you'll add a GPS antenna.  On mine I put the GPS antenna under the 

 vertical stab fairing, since I don't consider this as "critical to 

 navigation".   You can feed GPS in to the box from some other source,  but 

 the requirements of that GPS spec are pretty stringent, per ads-b 

 requirements, so I figured the simple way was to just use the built-in 

 GPS.



 The active traffic systems use like 4 wires for the antenna, or  something 

 like that, and the blade is much larger.

 The antenna for Ads-b is smaller and mounts on the belly.

 Tim



 On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:53 PM, "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> wrote:



> 

>

> I think you do need an additional antenna 4' away from the Transponder

> antenna. About $110.00 from Navworx. I forgot what type of antenna but

> it's a common aviation antenna. I plan the add the Navworx to two  ships

> so I will figure it out sooner or later (most likely later).

>

> Robin

> --

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

The 330 doesn't provide ADS-B, it just allows the Mode-S information to go to the ADS-B, and somehow show both on the same display.  I don't know the details, but your 330 can't provide ADS-B.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



On Jan 3, 2010, at 4:57 PM, lbgjb10 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 didn't realize that 330 worked with ADS-B, thought it was only S mode.  Does my 18 month old 330 have that capacity??  does it need different antenna??  upgrade??  larry

 

 --------

 Larry and Gayle N104LG

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79930#279930

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

Hi TIm, 

 Ruth told me that the Tiger does well on grass. She has landed it on grass and taxied...does well. She has 2000 hrs, mostly in Tigers (110 hrs in an overpriced Cirrus SR20 we had for 6 months). When we sell (we do have two interested clients now), I will have to get my certificate before we sell it. But it will be so great to move on with our lives. Talk to you later Tim. 

Brian 



---

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

Hi again TIm, 

I was ambiguos about the word sell. I meant that we have two interested clients in the farm, not the plane..we are about to put some leather seats in it also. Got a very good bid from someone in Aurora, Oregon near Vans. I know we won't get our money all back when we sell 179GT, but we will at least have some fun with it before we move, and perhaps for a short while after. Th epanel pics are from before we had the GTX 330 and PMA 7000 audio panel installed. Also hard wired the 696 on the co-pilot's side. It shows traffic also. 

Brian 



---

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: Transponder Question

I think I asked that question of them during my install too, and was

just highly encouraged to use a shark fin.  From an aerodynamic

perspective I think it's better too.  You want a DME/Transponder

antenna that works in that range from 960-1220mhz.  I think

mine is the RAMI AV-74

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

Pascal wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Tim;

 You mention the shark fin transponder, is that a specific requirement or 

 does any transponder antenna work the same?

 Thanks!

 

 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

 Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 4:13 PM

 To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Transponder Question

 

> 

>

> It's just a normal shark-fin Transponder antenna.   One wire.   Oh and 

> you'll add a GPS antenna.  On mine I put the GPS antenna under the 

> vertical stab fairing, since I don't consider this as "critical to 

> navigation".   You can feed GPS in to the box from some other source,  

> but the requirements of that GPS spec are pretty stringent, per ads-b 

> requirements, so I figured the simple way was to just use the built-in 

> GPS.

>

> The active traffic systems use like 4 wires for the antenna, or  

> something like that, and the blade is much larger.

> The antenna for Ads-b is smaller and mounts on the belly.

> Tim

>

> On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:53 PM, "Robin Marks" <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com> wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> I think you do need an additional antenna 4' away from the Transponder

>> antenna. About $110.00 from Navworx. I forgot what type of antenna but

>> it's a common aviation antenna. I plan the add the Navworx to two  ships

>> so I will figure it out sooner or later (most likely later).

>>

>> Robin

>>

>>

>> --

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