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RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl

 
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danlist(at)syz.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Hi there. I'm about to order my fuselage and finishing kits for my RV-10 and sorting out components to delete so as to replace/upgrade from stock Van's parts. One big ticket item I've been contemplating is the cowling. I intend on using an IO-540, either a stock Lycoming or from BPE depending on budget at the time.

Anyway, I've searched through the mailing list and various online forums, but any posts I've found relating to the James Aircraft cowl are fairly dated.. there seems to be some information on people's experiences with the James Aircraft cowls for other RVs, but not much for their RV-10 offering. I know some people are planning on using it, but are any flying? What about the specs on it - it is claimed to be faster, more fuel efficient, and better at cooling... is that measurable, or mostly just hype? I've read that it is a bit more work to fit than the standard Van's cowl - what are people's experiences with that? I'm trying to sort out if it's worth it (to me - everyone has their own criteria) in terms of cost and time, so any experiences that anyone has with it would be greatly appreciated!

And if anyone has other advice on components they'd upgrade from Van's stock items for the fuselage and finishing kit, I'm all ears.... especially for the more expensive items that can be deleted out of Van's kit.

Thanks for your help!

Dan
--
Syzygy Research & Technology
Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
Phone: 780-961-2213


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Deems Davis



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

There are several 10's flying with the James cowl/plenum. I am but one
of them. I love the appearance, but I do not believe that there is any
evidence that there is any improvement in performance, and there is a
fair amount of evidence that there is a negative impact on cooling and
LOP operations.

Deems Davis
N519PJ
www.deemsrv10.com

Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:


Hi there. I'm about to order my fuselage and finishing kits for my RV-10 and sorting out components to delete so as to replace/upgrade from stock Van's parts. One big ticket item I've been contemplating is the cowling. I intend on using an IO-540, either a stock Lycoming or from BPE depending on budget at the time.

Anyway, I've searched through the mailing list and various online forums, but any posts I've found relating to the James Aircraft cowl are fairly dated.. there seems to be some information on people's experiences with the James Aircraft cowls for other RVs, but not much for their RV-10 offering. I know some people are planning on using it, but are any flying? What about the specs on it - it is claimed to be faster, more fuel efficient, and better at cooling... is that measurable, or mostly just hype? I've read that it is a bit more work to fit than the standard Van's cowl - what are people's experiences with that? I'm trying to sort out if it's worth it (to me - everyone has their own criteria) in terms of cost and time, so any experiences that anyone has with it would be greatly appreciated!

And if anyone has other advice on components they'd upgrade from Van's stock items for the fuselage and finishing kit, I'm all ears.... especially for the more expensive items that can be deleted out of Van's kit.

Thanks for your help!

Dan
--
Syzygy Research & Technology
Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
Phone: 780-961-2213



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jkreidler



Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

We are flying with the James cowl and plenum. Looking at it from a few different angles build, looks, cost, and performance, I will provide this input.

I don’t think the cowl is much different from a build standpoint compared to installing the Vans cowl; most of the steps are the same. The plenum is basically a good starting point, installing the plenum will teach you all sorts of fiberglass fabrication techniques. The James plenum is NOT a bolt on item.

From a looks perspective, I (again I) think it looks great; the larger, more extended spinner really sets off the nose.

From a cost perspective the James cowl forces you to the larger spinner, which is expensive. The plenum forces you to run turbo injector nozzles to achieve lower fuel flow rates. This is because the pressure on top of the engine is lower than the pressure in a stock setup. This means that instead of air flowing through the injector body breather hole to help atomize the fuel, the air actually flows back up through the nozzle causing the engine to run rough when leaned. In some cases the flow is significant enough that you will see fuel stains around the injectors. You will lay out an additional ~$700 - $800 to get this setup installed. The costs don’t end just with the cowl and plenum, plan on a significant bump in $, and time.

From a performance standpoint the James cowl and plenum are far superior. You will gain whatever number you care to keep telling yourself. In our case we like to tell ourselves that we gained the 10 knots, which makes it all worth it!! Bottom line do not believe any of the numbers, they are all hype. Until someone takes the time to install the two cowl setups on the same aircraft (I mean same tail number airplane, not model), the numbers are not believable. I will say that I am fairly confident that it is not a performance penalty. Cooling performance is uncertain, in our installation we do not have any cooling problems (we have 260 HP), I know of others who are having cooling problems.

If we were building another I just don’t know if we would go down the same road. I would like to see the results of a James cowl installation without using the plenum. It seems the only hands down benefit are the looks, and the looks are a purely personal perception.


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4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
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dmaib(at)mac.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:03 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

I am using the standard Vans cowling and cooling plenum from Steve
Dinieri at iflyrv10.com and cooling and oil temps have been perfect.
14 months and 175 hours.

David Maib
40559
Flying

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover."
-Mark Twain
On Jan 8, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Dan Charrois wrote:



Hi there. I'm about to order my fuselage and finishing kits for my
RV-10 and sorting out components to delete so as to replace/upgrade
from stock Van's parts. One big ticket item I've been contemplating
is the cowling. I intend on using an IO-540, either a stock Lycoming
or from BPE depending on budget at the time.

Anyway, I've searched through the mailing list and various online
forums, but any posts I've found relating to the James Aircraft cowl
are fairly dated.. there seems to be some information on people's
experiences with the James Aircraft cowls for other RVs, but not much
for their RV-10 offering. I know some people are planning on using
it, but are any flying? What about the specs on it - it is claimed
to be faster, more fuel efficient, and better at cooling... is that
measurable, or mostly just hype? I've read that it is a bit more
work to fit than the standard Van's cowl - what are people's
experiences with that? I'm trying to sort out if it's worth it (to
me - everyone has their own criteria) in terms of cost and time, so
any experiences that anyone has with it would be greatly appreciated!

And if anyone has other advice on components they'd upgrade from
Van's stock items for the fuselage and finishing kit, I'm all
ears.... especially for the more expensive items that can be deleted
out of Van's kit.

Thanks for your help!

Dan
--
Syzygy Research & Technology
Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
Phone: 780-961-2213


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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

A reflection for new builders thinking about swaps and options; One
might think about swap-out options in terms of "where and on what kind
of stuff do I want to do some extra work?"

The kit from Vans is very complete and very well worked out as an obam
flying machine. The early builders solved some issues and the kit is
even more highly evolved. I didn't think that much about this as I've
gone along but I was so impressed by what I saw in the kit and heard
from others, I've generally decided to go with the stock Vans stuff and
haven't been sorry.

Where I've swapped an item or added some after market stuff, it's been
ok. I have some 2D design skills so I'm enjoying laying out my own
panel using Stein blanks... I wish I could extend that joy to coming up
with a paint scheme (it's steal and copy time). I've never worked with
aviation powerplants and didn't want to, so I stayed completely stock
and old school. The only kind of work I was somewhat familiar with and
enjoyed expanding on were the electricals and electronics so I played a
bit there using Faststack and the Aeroeletric list to make it enjoyable.
Even there, the most valuable aids included the Vans wiring diagram
(didn't get the kit, just the plans) and the Vans stock panel (which I
didn't use at all but glad I didn't swap it out).

My empiricist leanings and experiences in high performance sailplanes
makes me suspect of all performance improvements. Van's reputation
suggests a highly efficient design and a frugal implementation resulting
in a very good performing obam aircraft which seems to be the
overwhelming consensus of those that are flying. Staying stock seems
the best way to save money. Keeping it light is probably the best way
to improve aircraft performance though not as much fun to do.

Then of course there's the very personal balance between the joy of
building (add more stuff) versus the joy of flight (do less faster).

Just some thoughts for new folks from someone more than half done.
Bill
Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:


Hi there. I'm about to order my fuselage and finishing kits for my RV-10 and sorting out components to delete so as to replace/upgrade from stock Van's parts. One big ticket item I've been contemplating is the cowling. I intend on using an IO-540, either a stock Lycoming or from BPE depending on budget at the time.

Anyway, I've searched through the mailing list and various online forums, but any posts I've found relating to the James Aircraft cowl are fairly dated.. there seems to be some information on people's experiences with the James Aircraft cowls for other RVs, but not much for their RV-10 offering. I know some people are planning on using it, but are any flying? What about the specs on it - it is claimed to be faster, more fuel efficient, and better at cooling... is that measurable, or mostly just hype? I've read that it is a bit more work to fit than the standard Van's cowl - what are people's experiences with that? I'm trying to sort out if it's worth it (to me - everyone has their own criteria) in terms of cost and time, so any experiences that anyone has with it would be greatly appreciated!

And if anyone has other advice on components they'd upgrade from Van's stock items for the fuselage and finishing kit, I'm all ears.... especially for the more expensive items that can be deleted out of Van's kit.

Thanks for your help!

Dan
--
Syzygy Research & Technology
Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
Phone: 780-961-2213



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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

I'm wanting to go with the Barrett Cold Air Induction and (was) planning on using the James Cowl.

Does Vans sell a cowl for the cold air induction? Is there anyone else out there who does, or is it something we get to modify on our own if we don't go with James?

Thanks,
Phil

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Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

ShowPlanes has been working on a -10 with our cold air with cowling options and Bill Genevero at Airflow Systems was talking about doing some design work for a -10 cowl with cold air. Don't know what the current status of either.

Van's does not have a cowl for the -10 with our cold air as it is not a stock engine option directly from Lycoming.

Rhonda Barrett-Bewley
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
Tulsa, OK

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rleffler



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

In talking with Deems Davis and Gary Specketer at OSH, the advice I was given was to use the Van's cowl for the BPA Cold Air Induction. The consensus was that it was the lesser of the evils, so to speak, to modify.

Also, Rod Bower (http://www.ramairforhomebuilts.com) sells at scoop that makes using his alternative air and the Barrett Cold Air Induction easier to accommodate. In looking at his site, it appears that he just came out with a mod to accommodate his alternative air for vertical induction too. His solution is much more elegant than the one that Vans sells.
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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Thanks Bob, et al.

Is Vans cowl honeycomb? How difficult would it be to modify?

I'm a fiberglass virgin. I know just enough to get in serious trouble.

Phil




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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Recent update to my site to include James Cowl & Plenum experience.
Bottom line for me is I would not do it again if I know what I know now.
Make sure to read Update & LOP Update at the bottom of the page. I will add a Turbo Nozzle page in the coming weeks.

Robin

http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/SJ%20Plenum.htm

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 11:03 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl



Thanks Bob, et al.

Is Vans cowl honeycomb? How difficult would it be to modify?

I'm a fiberglass virgin. I know just enough to get in serious trouble.

Phil




---


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cjohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

So is there anyone who is using the James cowl without the plenum? after a bit of a building hiatus, I'm staring at the James plenum on the shelf and I'm not getting warm fuzzies. I've already fitted the James cowl, so I'm pretty much tied to that, but I haven't really poked at it to see if I could make the standard baffling work. Also, after gaining some experience with maintaining a flying airplane, I can definitely tell that having an extra thing to pull off the engine before I can get at the top of it would become a bummer pretty quickly... Thoughts anyone?

cj

On Jan 8, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
[quote]Recent update to my site to include James Cowl & Plenum experience.
Bottom line for me is I would not do it again if I know what I know now.
Make sure to read Update & LOP Update at the bottom of the page. I will add a Turbo Nozzle page in the coming weeks.

Robin

http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/SJ%20Plenum.htm



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 11:03 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl


Thanks Bob, et al.

Is Vans cowl honeycomb? How difficult would it be to modify?

I'm a fiberglass virgin. I know just enough to get in serious trouble.

Phil


---


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speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Call me or e-mail me and I will walk you through the process of mating Barrett with the Van's cowl. Way less work than fighting with the James setup.

Gary Specketer
770-403-3450

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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Chris,
            GREAT to hear from you and see you on the list again. My thoughts on the plenum are here:

http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/SJ%20Plenum.htm

            I would definitely consider trying the SJ cowl with standard baffles. I am not sure how one transitions from the inlet to the cylinders but I am sure that can be overcome. Of course I have no idea what the unintended consequences are but it can’t be any worse than the SJ plenum. Seriously!

Robin

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of christopher johnston
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl



So is there anyone who is using the James cowl without the plenum? after a bit of a building hiatus, I'm staring at the James plenum on the shelf and I'm not getting warm fuzzies. I've already fitted the James cowl, so I'm pretty much tied to that, but I haven't really poked at it to see if I could make the standard baffling work. Also, after gaining some experience with maintaining a flying airplane, I can definitely tell that having an extra thing to pull off the engine before I can get at the top of it would become a bummer pretty quickly... Thoughts anyone?


cj



On Jan 8, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Robin Marks wrote:




Recent update to my site to include James Cowl & Plenum experience.

Bottom line for me is I would not do it again if I know what I know now.

Make sure to read Update & LOP Update at the bottom of the page. I will add a Turbo Nozzle page in the coming weeks.



Robin



http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/SJ%20Plenum.htm



Â



From:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]On Behalf OfPerry, Phil
Sent:Friday, January 08, 2010 11:03 AM
To:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject:Re: RV10-List: Re: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl





Thanks Bob, et al.

Is Vans cowl honeycomb? How difficult would it be to modify?

I'm a fiberglass virgin. I know just enough to get in serious trouble.

Phil




---


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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

I wish to revise and amend my “Seriously!” statement:

Your mileage may vary. My thoughts are detailed on the link provided. Many others in the two place world have had success. Issues in the RV-10 world still persist.

Robin  


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:43 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl



Chris,
GREAT to hear from you and see you on the list again. My thoughts on the plenum are here:

http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/SJ%20Plenum.htm

I would definitely consider trying the SJ cowl with standard baffles. I am not sure how one transitions from the inlet to the cylinders but I am sure that can be overcome. Of course I have no idea what the unintended consequences are but it can’t be any worse than the SJ plenum. Seriously!

Robin

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of christopher johnston
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl



So is there anyone who is using the James cowl without the plenum? after a bit of a building hiatus, I'm staring at the James plenum on the shelf and I'm not getting warm fuzzies. I've already fitted the James cowl, so I'm pretty much tied to that, but I haven't really poked at it to see if I could make the standard baffling work. Also, after gaining some experience with maintaining a flying airplane, I can definitely tell that having an extra thing to pull off the engine before I can get at the top of it would become a bummer pretty quickly... Thoughts anyone?


cj



On Jan 8, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Robin Marks wrote:


Recent update to my site to include James Cowl & Plenum experience.

Bottom line for me is I would not do it again if I know what I know now.

Make sure to read Update & LOP Update at the bottom of the page. I will add a Turbo Nozzle page in the coming weeks.



Robin



http://www.painttheweb.com/rv-10/SJ%20Plenum.htm



Â



From:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]On Behalf OfPerry, Phil
Sent:Friday, January 08, 2010 11:03 AM
To:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject:Re: RV10-List: Re: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl





Thanks Bob, et al.

Is Vans cowl honeycomb? How difficult would it be to modify?

I'm a fiberglass virgin. I know just enough to get in serious trouble.

Phil




---


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woxofswa



Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Robin,

Thanks to you, Deems, and others, for saving me a ton of time and money.

You early pioneers are a godsend to those of us who trail.

I try and re-focus to the KISS concept and sticking to the tried and true.

(and then my mind starts to wander and I contemplate things like "Lambo'ing" the doors).

Hope to see you again at the "nest".


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Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Thanks Myron for the nice comments, I was just looking at your business
card yesterday. Yes Plans built is a really smart choice. There are
definitely mods I would do again like an OH Console, Door Seals, Andair
Fuel Valve, Wheel Pant Extensions, Replacement Front Axel, flexible
braded break lines and probably a few others but for the most part Van
designs a heck of an aircraft as is.
As far as flying the -10 I have been putting a lot of hours recently for
both business & pleasure (over 120 TT now). Within the last 10 days I
did my SBP to LA commute and back, a 2 day trip to Las Vegas to attend
CES using O2 for the first time (4 hour round trip vs. 16 hour drive) at
12,500 burning 12.5 GPH getting about 16 MPG. A round trip to Monterey
for a 4 hour family reunion (the best type!) and a return leg back to
LA. The RV-10 makes for easy & comfortable cross country and regional
flights adding a level of life improving richness the nicest car can
never match.

Robin
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danlist(at)syz.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:34 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for letting me know of your experiences with the James Aircraft cowl. From the sounds of things, I think I'm going to go with the stock Van's cowl. I was hoping there might be some demonstrable performance gain, but I'm not enough of an "appearance" guy for the look to be worth the additional effort, complication, and cost. Keeping things more straightforward can't be a bad thing Smile

Dan

On 2010-Jan-07, at 10:08 PM, Dan Charrois wrote:

Quote:


Hi there. I'm about to order my fuselage and finishing kits for my RV-10 and sorting out components to delete so as to replace/upgrade from stock Van's parts. One big ticket item I've been contemplating is the cowling. I intend on using an IO-540, either a stock Lycoming or from BPE depending on budget at the time.

Anyway, I've searched through the mailing list and various online forums, but any posts I've found relating to the James Aircraft cowl are fairly dated.. there seems to be some information on people's experiences with the James Aircraft cowls for other RVs, but not much for their RV-10 offering. I know some people are planning on using it, but are any flying? What about the specs on it - it is claimed to be faster, more fuel efficient, and better at cooling... is that measurable, or mostly just hype? I've read that it is a bit more work to fit than the standard Van's cowl - what are people's experiences with that? I'm trying to sort out if it's worth it (to me - everyone has their own criteria) in terms of cost and time, so any experiences that anyone has with it would be greatly appreciated!

And if anyone has other advice on components they'd upgrade from Van's stock items for the fuselage and finishing kit, I'm all ears.... especially for the more expensive items that can be deleted out of Van's kit.

Thanks for your help!

Dan
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:43 am    Post subject: RV-10 with James Aircraft Holy Cowl Reply with quote

It will be interesting to see how the Showplanes cowling will turn out. I
went with the stock cowling after hearing all of the horror stories with the
SJ cowl.

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