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planning

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sean(at)hangerg.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: planning

Hello everyone,



I was looking for a bit of advice in planning. I am looking at purchasing an

RV10 QBkit next month. I am starting to do some financial planning for this

purchase and I was wondering realistically what I can figure on spending to

complete this project. This will be my first aircraft project and I am

looking for some direction. Any thoughts or insights would be greatly

appreciated.



Thanks

GenGrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: planning

Sean,

  

 I can't speak for the rest of the crowd, but plan for this like building a house.

  

 Do your best planning and estimating based on airframe, engine and avionics.

  

 Then add 50%......

  

 grumpy

 #40404

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

 In a message dated 4/11/2006 8:11:21 PM Central Standard Time, sean(at)hangerg.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello everyone,



I was looking for a bit of advice in planning. I am looking at purchasing an

RV10 QBkit next month. I am starting to do some financial planning for this

purchase and I was wondering realistically what I can figure on spending to

complete this project. This will be my first aircraft project and I am

looking for some direction. Any thoughts or insights would be greatly

appreciated.



Thanks

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: planning

That all depends on how much you expect to spend on a panel, what engine you

are putting in (new certified, new experimental, rebuilt, or used) and what

extras you are putting in (fiberglass panel, overhead console, A/C, DVD

system, ballistic chute, etc.).  With a budget of $25,000 for a panel and

$35,000 for an engine, you are probably looking at about $125,000 or so, I

would think, not including the bells & whistles.  This is just a rough

estimate, but some are spending upwards of $60,000 for the panel and upwards

of $40,000 for an engine, not to mention the extras.  Stuff will add up

faster than you can count, probably.  Van's project cost estimator on their

website is all but worthless, I think, when talking about the -10.  If

anybody has been able to build one for under $90,000, which I have seen

advertised, please let me know and I will retract my statement.



Oh, I was kidding about the ballistic chute, but I won't be surprised if I

see one available one of these days like the Cirrus has.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

 

I'm in Ecuador right now and should be back in the country by the end of

May.  You may call me at 352-505-1899 and leave a message that I can check

from down here.  Any I-TEC questions can be directed to the I-TEC office at

352-465-4545.



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: planning

As you might expect there's a wide variation based upon options that you 

have available to you and the decisions you make relative to those options.

Some rules of thumb:

1/3 cost = kit

1/3 cost = engine & prop

1/3 cost = panel



The cost of the kit itself is pretty well established, however Van does 

increaase his prices at the beginning of every year.  There are options 

available for the airframe, (lighting, fuel valve, cowls,plenum, 

interior panels/ducts/lights that all add cost.

Engine, a WIDE variation from used Lycomings (teens $K) to new Lycomings 

($40k+) and then Alternative (mostly auto conversions) and then there 

are options that will add to this (electronic ingition, balancing, cold 

air induction,oil coolers, & more)

Props - again options used to new 2 blade vs 3 blade, metal vs 

composite, cost range (4-5kused - $15k)

Panel - How much money have you got? basic VFR could be done relatively 

inexpensively, particularly if you scrounge for used instruments, new 

glass IFR upwards of$40-50k +

Tools - you'll buy more along the way.



Plug in your decisions and you'll get an ESTIMATE.



Then add 10-15% for stuff you didn't think about.



Deems Davis # 406

Fuse

http://deemsrv10.com/



sean garrison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hello everyone,



I was looking for a bit of advice in planning. I am looking at purchasing an

RV10 QBkit next month. I am starting to do some financial planning for this

purchase and I was wondering realistically what I can figure on spending to

complete this project. This will be my first aircraft project and I am

looking for some direction. Any thoughts or insights would be greatly

appreciated.



Thanks

armywrights(at)adelphia.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: planning

QB, I started out with planning around $100K, have gone up to 125K, and now

am back down to about 110K.  But this includes upgrading a lot of my

original panel choices and going with a cheaper (rebuilt/overhaul) option on

the engine and prop, so the price changes equalize.  If I were going all new

I'd probably be up to around $150K (estimated) right now.



Rob #392



--

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: planning

My humble opinion is that if you have more time than money, go with an

alternative engine.  I'm doing a cosmo 20B which will put out 280 HP and

with a constant speed prop will be in to the package at $12,000.  Yes that's

engine, prop, and reduction gear, 2.85 to 1 giving me a 2175 RPM on the

prop.  It will take me a little longer, but I'd rather have the extra

$40,000 in my pocket.  So math says 40 for kit, 12 for engine and 25 for

avionics leaving $77,000 into it without paint.  Upholstery will cost me

nada.  Add 10% to 15% and you come up with 85 to 90.  



Avionics is another matter, I think I'm going GRT EfIS 1 Dual Screen, and

drop resolution for economy.  Still will have no round guages.



Bob K 

N104BK working on the flap torque tubes.

Do not archive.

johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: planning

Let me add a new fraction in the sphere of EFIS and glass cockpits.

1/4 cost = airframe kit

1/4 cost = engine with FWF

1/2 = prop, paint, panel, avionics, accessories and interior finish.



VANS estimates of 90K, Randy's costs and Tim's costs might just shed a

more useable light on the RV-10 when estimating.  The rest of you flying

might through your fractions out for discussion.



John - $00.02

Do not Archive



--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: planning

Acutally, that's probably more correct, except in some cases

the 2nd line should read 1/4 cost = engine (No FWF).



1/4 Airframe

1/4 Engine

1/8 Prop, Paint, Accessories, Interior, FWF

3/8 Avionics, Panel wiring and assembly



Or something to that effect.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John W. Cox wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Let me add a new fraction in the sphere of EFIS and glass cockpits.

 1/4 cost = airframe kit

 1/4 cost = engine with FWF

 1/2 = prop, paint, panel, avionics, accessories and interior finish.

 

 VANS estimates of 90K, Randy's costs and Tim's costs might just shed a

 more useable light on the RV-10 when estimating.  The rest of you flying

 might through your fractions out for discussion.

 

 John - $00.02

 Do not Archive

 

 --

jjessen(at)rcn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject: planning

I keep doing the numbers and coming up with a range of 120 to 160, but never

below the 120 mark.  And sometimes above the 160 fathom.  I suggest that in

some respects the glass craze is becoming just that, and driving up folks

feel they must spend, along with an engine that compliments same.  I bounce

back and forth between high end and very high end.  Let me please take a

deep breath.  



I rode on a 757 the other day and lingered a bit at the open door to the

flight deck.  Nothing but steam gauges.  Even still, we seemed to have very

nicely transitioned from point A to point B, around 3200 miles.  I'm going

glass, mind you, but Randy's Yugo is actually more capable than that 757, in

some ways.  Not in others, of course.  All I'm saying is that we need to get

a grip.  The difference between a Yugo panel and top of the line can be 40

thousand dollars.  $40,000.  Yeow.  Still gets you there.  Got that 757

there.  



So, how much to plan for?  You can do a very nice IFR capable plane for 120k

or less.  But it's hard.  I feel like Jason at the mast.  The Sirens are

calling.



John Jessen

  ~328 (I don't know.  Seemed like a great idea at the time.)  



--

dmasys(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: planning

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I keep doing the numbers and coming up with a range of 120 to 160, but never

 below the 120 mark.  And sometimes above the 160 fathom.  


	


Seems absolutely frugal compared to a new 140kt Skylane costing $300K or a Cirrus at $450K, doesn't it?  Makes me think I should have kept the fully loaded IFR equipped C172 that I got for $15K in 1987 as a table ornament.



As Gordon Baxter said, the price of aviation has always been the same:  all you got.



-Dan Masys

#40448

GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:47 am Post subject: planning

John, 

  

 While the 757 has steam gauges on it, I'm sure it flew by an Inertial Flight System, guiding the AP system, the IFS is the unit with the key pad sitting between the right and left seat...the gauges just hook into the system as does a modern digital box system driving the screen system...the digital system just may be a little more accurate if it is programmed correctly and the input data is accurate.  How much more accurate would a digital system be over an analog system, guess that would depend upon how accurate the software and hardware are.

  

 I get to fly with a G 1000 system, this week coming up it will be going into the shop to update the software again as Garmin/Cessna have discovered a number of issues with the product.  This is the 3-4th time in the last year they have had to update the software, one time the plane was down for 3 weeks because the updating software was incorrect and they needed to write a special patch...the updated software crashed the system.  In the mean time we have an old Q model 182 and it's still running along, IFR with steam gauges...sure it does not look as nice as the flat panel screens in the T model, but it's not been down for software issues.

  

 They will both get you from point A to B; it's just a matter of information display, redundancy, and back up information...whether you look at a chart, and approach plates printed or view them on a screen the basic data is the same...it's the presentation and redundancy you're paying for...IMHO.  

  

 With the G 1000 system, I don't believe you are required to carry charts/plates as the memory contains all the enroute and approach plates but you do need to have a current data base.  

  

 Patrick S

  

 do not archive

jjessen(at)rcn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: planning

Exactly.  Talked  with them a bit, and they did "pat" the Inertial system, said that it was a  little better than a Cessna.  Made me feel better.  I, too, flew   C-182Q for awhile, and it did do the job very nicely.  I really liked that  plane.  If Garmin does offers the G-1000, people like me, who have a hard  time deciding which toothpaste to buy, are going to be in for a very  difficult time when it's time for panel purchases.  Garmin, Chelton, Op,  AFS, etc etc.  Yeow...

  

 John

  

 do not  archive



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 5:46  AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List:  planning

 

 John, 

  

 While the 757 has steam gauges on it, I'm sure it flew by an Inertial  Flight System, guiding the AP system, the IFS is the unit with the key pad  sitting between the right and left seat...the gauges just hook into the system  as does a modern digital box system driving  the screen system...the digital system just may be a little more  accurate if it is programmed correctly and the input data is accurate.  How  much more accurate would a digital system be over an analog system, guess that  would depend upon how accurate the software and hardware are.

  

 I get to fly with a G 1000 system, this week coming up it will be going  into the shop to update the software again as Garmin/Cessna have discovered  a number of issues with the product.  This is the 3-4th time in the  last year they have had to update the software, one time the plane was down for  3 weeks because the updating software was incorrect and they needed to write a  special patch...the updated software crashed the system.  In the mean  time we have an old Q model 182 and it's still running along, IFR with steam  gauges...sure it does not look as nice as the flat panel screens in the T model,  but it's not been down for software issues.

  

 They will both get you from point A to B; it's just a matter of information  display, redundancy, and back up information...whether you look at a chart, and  approach plates printed or view them on a screen the basic data is the  same...it's the presentation and redundancy you're paying for...IMHO.   

  

 With the G 1000 system, I don't believe you are required to carry  charts/plates as the memory contains all the enroute and approach plates but you  do need to have a current data base.  

  

 Patrick S

  

 do not archive

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: planning

Sorry, this is just food for thought.

Let me close my eyes before you all hit me!



Two years ago I landed at Hurricane, Utah after flying 310 miles from from 

southern California in my 18 meter non motorized sailplane. This is one of 

my common flights as there are many which are much longer in distance and 

duration.



A very nice gentle man rode his bicycle out to the runway to help me push my 

glider off the runway and onto the ramp.  After I had put my glider away 

into my trailer with the help of my crew, the man was kind enough to invite 

us over to his hanger for a soda and bathroom stop.  Inside his hanger sat a 

beautiful Bonanza.  He explained how wonderful his plane was.  He had 

autopilot, CD and DVD player and he said he could just get up to altitude 

and put a movie in and watch the entire movie while he was traveling.  Wow!



My point, I had just flow over three hundred mile, with never taking my hand 

off the stick except for when I pissed.  I had been cleared through Vegas' 

Class B, had a fantastic flight and got to experience all kinds of emotional 

feelings and physical sensations and see some unbelievable countryside.  The 

entire flight I was working to keep my flight progressing all while looking 

out my canopy and not being transfixed on my gadgets.



I too have a lot of conflicted emotions about what equipment I will place in 

my 10, but I keep thinking about my sailplane and I think about the panels I 

have seen in bush planes in Alaska and I wonder, man, these guys in Alaska 

are the "da kine" and they don't seem to fly with all this "Stuff".



My biggest problem is the fog that comes into SoCal in the summer months and 

I am near the coast. I do not plan on flying over LAX on a routine basis, 

but this damm fog could cut me off on my way back from where I really want 

to be...the mountains.



With all that said, I say, "I feel your pain." Just remember why we are up 

there in the air in the first place...look out the canopy.



We have glider pilots that are in the habit of not looking out the 

canopy...first they never leave the immediate vicinity of the airport or 

they don't go very far or long.  One guy is not allowed to fly from our 

airport because he is a danger to all those around him.



I think you all are absolutely amazing in that you know so much about all 

this tech stuff and awesome if you can manage everything at all times and 

keep looking out the canopy.



Just remember, in the movies...Luke turned off the targeting computer when 

he destroyed the Death Star...of course this is the movies. "May the force 

be with you."



JG. 409



Do not Archive

[quote]From: "John Jessen" <jjessen(at)rcn.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: planning

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:48:05 -0700






I keep doing the numbers and coming up with a range of 120 to 160, but 

never

below the 120 mark.  And sometimes above the 160 fathom.  I suggest that in

some respects the glass craze is becoming just that, and driving up folks

feel they must spend, along with an engine that compliments same.  I bounce

back and forth between high end and very high end.  Let me please take a

deep breath.



I rode on a 757 the other day and lingered a bit at the open door to the

flight deck.  Nothing but steam gauges.  Even still, we seemed to have very

nicely transitioned from point A to point B, around 3200 miles.  I'm going

glass, mind you, but Randy's Yugo is actually more capable than that 757, 

in

some ways.  Not in others, of course.  All I'm saying is that we need to 

get

a grip.  The difference between a Yugo panel and top of the line can be 40

thousand dollars.  $40,000.  Yeow.  Still gets you there.  Got that 757

there.



So, how much to plan for?  You can do a very nice IFR capable plane for 

120k

or less.  But it's hard.  I feel like Jason at the mast.  The Sirens are

calling.



John Jessen

   ~328 (I don't know.  Seemed like a great idea at the time.)



--

jdalton77(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: planning

more proof that everybody has his own mission - and desires - when it comes 

to flying.



Me, I don't see any point in going up and just "punching holes" in the sky. 

A $200 hamburger (yes, used to be $100) is just that - and I can get one for 

$3 on the ground.  But traveling, going places, exploring new frontiers, 

THAT's exciting and fun.  But that's just me.  For that, I may need a GPS.

---

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