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M14 P Problem

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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

Ivor,Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?  

If yes, what were the temps at the time?

How or was it preheated?

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp



On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise(at)txc.net.au (wise(at)txc.net.au)> wrote:

 [quote]        

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MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

What kind of oil was in it?  Straight 60W oil  in an unheated hangar would take a long time to drain down at freezing  temps.

  

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:09 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

For what it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the question about "how cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is very apt.  As everyone knows, oil does not flow real well when it is cold.  Pulling the plugs, pulling the intake drains, and turning the prop around in circles until the cows come home may not be enough.  I did this, and when I started it, a really terrifying amount of oil still came out the exhaust and blew all over the place.  Much more than a normal summer start.  



If oil has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold, it will not get sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the prop and it does not want to come out of the intake drains either.  



Some folks suggest "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming the living be-jeesus out of the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil.  I don't know if this works or not... Good luck with that approach.  



The original Russian design called for thinning the oil with fuel using the oil dilution system, which I personally have removed. So much for that.  



That leaves pre-heating the engine.  A lot.  Probably a good approach!   



Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where someone takes Kevin Kimball's oil shut off valve, and does the work necessary to make all the adapter hoses to fit it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT for the YAK, or any other model using the M-14.  



My personal opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with this valve off, is less than the risk we all are going through with oil causing hydraulic lock, leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc.  A little common sense, a starter interlock switch, will also cut the chance of being stupid and starting with the valve off.  The importance of this mod just went up 10 notches listening to this disaster story. 



Mark Bitterlich

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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

The system that Mark describe is what I have.  Basically, its an  electric shut-off valve right at the base of the oil tank.  The  electrical circuit for the starter air solenoid is opened or closed by the  actual position of the valve -not power to the valve motor.  When the valve  is open - the starter works - when valve is close the starter don't.   HOWEVER YOU CAN CLOSE THE VALVE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING!  Now this can be a  good thing too believe it or not.  On a normal engine shutdown - you run  the RPM up to 1900 for some 20 seconds (I think that's what the book says) to  purge the engine.  What I do and done for hundreds of hours now, is take  the RPMs up - after 20 seconds or so, I CLOSE the oil tank valve.  I than  reduce throttle, and watch for an oil pressure drop.  The engine is at idle  and when the pressure hits zero, I switch off the mags.  I believe this has  truly purged the engine.  I know get I ZERO oil on the hangar  floor.  Oh I still pull through before every start, but I've never had a  lock-up (knock on wood) on this engine.  And unless my oil gage is stuck,  my oil pressure has not changed for some 1,500 hours.  This switch has  a guard on it and is a 2 position switch.  If the guard is down, than the  switch is in the valve open position.  The switch can only be moved to the  closed position if you raise the guard up.  Drop the guard the switch goes  to the valve open position.

  

 Bill Blackwell set this up for me years ago.  There are some other  drawbacks that can happen in odd ball situations.  Like you have a dead  battery but plenty of air pressure.  You can start the engine by manually  opening the start air valve.  OK but you need to have that oil tank  open too.  On my system there is a manual level also on the oil  valve.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  In a message dated 1/15/2010 10:10:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

 [quote]For what    it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the question about "how    cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is very apt.  As    everyone knows, oil does not flow real well when it is cold.  Pulling the    plugs, pulling the intake drains, and turning the prop around in circles until    the cows come home may not be enough.  I did this, and when I started it,    a really terrifying amount of oil still came out the exhaust and blew all over    the place.  Much more than a normal summer start.  



If oil    has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold, it will not get    sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the prop and it does not    want to come out of the intake drains either.  



Some folks suggest    "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming the living be-jeesus out of    the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil.  I don't know if this works or    not... Good luck with that approach.  



The original Russian design    called for thinning the oil with fuel using the oil dilution system, which I    personally have removed. So much for that.  



That leaves    pre-heating the engine.  A lot.  Probably a good    approach!   



Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where    someone takes Kevin Kimball's oil shut off valve, and does the work necessary    to make all the adapter hoses to fit it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT    for the YAK, or any other model using the M-14.  



My personal    opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with this valve off, is less    than the risk we all are going through with oil causing hydraulic lock,    leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc.  A little common sense,    a starter interlock switch, will also cut the chance of being stupid and    starting with the valve off.  The importance of this mod just went up 10    notches listening to this disaster story. 



Mark    Bitterlich

--

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:14 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

Pappy,

      Do you have a pre-oiler installed on your  engine?  If not, how long does it take for you to get oil pressure on a  normal start after doing your shutdown procedure?

  

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

 [quote]   ---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:04 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

Yep I do have a pre-oiler.  And I use it religiously.  When I  engage it, it takes about 30 to 45 sec for the needle move but it never gets up  to normal pressure readings.  After starting,  the regular engine  driven oil pump, brings the pressure up with-in 20 seconds at most.  A  long time ago, I wanted to see how quickly the oil was going though the engine  using the pre-oiler.  I did this by opening the plug in the casting oil  galley that leads to the prop.   I than turned on the pre-oiler.   It took less than 8 seconds.  I am fairly certain that oil going to the  other inter sections (bearing and such) takes longer and that is why I wait to  see pressure of the gage.  

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 1/15/2010 1:14:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark(at)pld.com writes:

 [quote]   Pappy,

        Do you have a pre-oiler installed on your    engine?  If not, how long does it take for you to get oil pressure on a    normal start after doing your shutdown procedure?

    

   Mark Davis

   N44YK

   [quote]     ---

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: M14 P Problem

G'Day Doug,

  

 Thanks for the reply.

 No, the hanger had no need to be heated as this is  summertime and temps are now high 20"s C to 30's C

  

 The consenses seems to to be that there may have  been oil left in the tubes and that yes the rod has bent and the ring has  poped out.

  

 Thanks and regards,

 Chris.

  

 ---

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:12 pm Post subject: M14 P Problem

G'Day Jim,

  

 The reply from both you and Mark make perfect sense.

 Thanks for the reply and as I replied to Mark, the oil shut off valve has  now become a priority to fit to our 18T.

 I am forwarding all the replies to Ivor who is actually our LAME and he  also runs a 18T.

 Ivor has done the LAME certification and inspections and so on for most of  the Yaks the were brought into Australia by Red Stars Aviation.

  

 Cheers and kind regards,

 Chris.

  

 [quote]   ---

Francois Davel

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 24

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:14 am Post subject: Re: M14 P Problem

This problem was one I reported to Ivor and he kindly got onto this list.



Just as an update, there was no oil that come out after the engine tried to start from of any cylinders....so would this still constitute a hydro lock?



I am getting a boroscope tomorrow and looking inside the pots. also I will be checking the position of the pistons in the bores, to see if one is very low or not.



Any other good ideas?



Cheers



Francois

_________________
Round Engines RULE!

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:48 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

Is this available as a kit? 



Mark



 



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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: M14 P Problem

Francois,

    

   I don't how good a bore scope may work for you.  Off the top of my head I can't see how you might be able to see the bottom of all the cylinder skirts.    Measure the distance or which piston is down the further est is a good idea.  If that piston has dropped far enough that the scraper ring has gone below the cylinder skirt and hung up the engine, you may need only to remove that cylinder to free up the engine.  You can check the rod at that time HOWEVER most likely if the piston has dropped that low to began with, the rod is mostly likely bent.  At least you'll be able to see just what problem you have.  Plus you'll be able to check the rest of the cylinder skirt too.  Remember the master rod is on  #4 cylinder.  Major problem if it is bent.  Because most master rods are more "beefy" its usually one of the other rods.  If one of the other rods, you may only need to replace it, still not the easy est job in the world.

    

   Good luck

    

   Jim "Pappy" Goolsby 

 

 

   

 

 

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