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Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

I woke up with this idea this morning and thought I’d throw some fresh meat into the lion den and see if I can’t start a really big cat fight.  I hope I do.  J  

   

The idea is to use a 12v Solenoid Operated Dead Bolt lock.   It would be installed in mid-fuse decks.  The bolt will point up and ultimately penetrate into the base of the door.  The bolt operates when 12v is applied to the solenoid.    

   

With a very tiny bit of wiring logic,  the 12v can be routed through a micro-switch.  That switch is used to detect when the interior (or exterior) handle has rotated X degrees (from fully open) toward the closed position.   I’ll use 20 degrees for example.  

   

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Get in and pull the doors down.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Rotate the door handle to close the main door pins.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>From 0 degrees to 20 degrees the bolt is retracted.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>At 20 degrees the bolt engages to secure the bottom of the door (before the main pins have even started through the Nylon or Aluminum blocks).  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>The bolt stays engaged until the handle is rotated back and the switch opens at 20 degrees.  

<![if !supportLists]>§  <![endif]>By having the bolt engage before the pins enter the door frame, it protects against those who are concerned with bumping the handle accidently.   

   

   

A couple of fail-safe modes and emergency points.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Should you need rescued from someone on the ground, it can be operated with the regular exterior door latch.  They just twist the door latch and the micro-switch disengages the b  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Should you have a 12v power failure, the bolt will retract when the power is lost.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Should you have an accident that rips the wire from the solenoid, the bolt will retract.  

   

I can’t think of a failure mode that would cause a problem assuming you use a bolt that extends with 12v and retracts with 0v – not the opposite.  

   

One of my concerns were damaging the door by extending the bolt without having the door in the correct position.  Meaning the bolt would miss it’s hole and it would push up and damage the bottom of the door.    

   

After a little research, I found this lock has a safety circuit in it.  The force of the bolt deployment is really low and  if the bolt can’t extend into a recess, the 12v is removed.  Saving the switch and any damage that could occur.  Keep in mind it’s designed to deploy into a female recess and then the bolt is designed to operate in shear.  The bolt isn’t designed to punch holes in wooden door frames – or our RV-10 doors.  

   

Okay, now that I’ve shaken this fresh chicken in front of ALL the lions, have at it.  I’ve got a Houston RV builders group lunch to go to….  J  

   

   

http://tinyurl.com/ybktr2s  

   

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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

  Interesting idea and similar to something else I was thinking about.  The biggest problem would be a rather strong electromagnet in the vicinity of a whole bunch of sensitive avionics.  

   

michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil

 Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:40 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea  

  

  

   

I woke up with this idea this morning and thought I’d throw some fresh meat into the lion den and see if I can’t start a really big cat fight.  I hope I do.  J  

   

The idea is to use a 12v Solenoid Operated Dead Bolt lock.   It would be installed in mid-fuse decks.  The bolt will point up and ultimately penetrate into the base of the door.  The bolt operates when 12v is applied to the solenoid.    

   

With a very tiny bit of wiring logic,  the 12v can be routed through a micro-switch.  That switch is used to detect when the interior (or exterior) handle has rotated X degrees (from fully open) toward the closed position.   I’ll use 20 degrees for example.  

   

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Get in and pull the doors down.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Rotate the door handle to close the main door pins.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>From 0 degrees to 20 degrees the bolt is retracted.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>At 20 degrees the bolt engages to secure the bottom of the door (before the main pins have even started through the Nylon or Aluminum blocks).  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>The bolt stays engaged until the handle is rotated back and the switch opens at 20 degrees.  

<![if !supportLists]>§  <![endif]>By having the bolt engage before the pins enter the door frame, it protects against those who are concerned with bumping the handle accidently.   

   

   

A couple of fail-safe modes and emergency points.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Should you need rescued from someone on the ground, it can be operated with the regular exterior door latch.  They just twist the door latch and the micro-switch disengages the b  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Should you have a 12v power failure, the bolt will retract when the power is lost.  

<![if !supportLists]>-          <![endif]>Should you have an accident that rips the wire from the solenoid, the bolt will retract.  

   

I can’t think of a failure mode that would cause a problem assuming you use a bolt that extends with 12v and retracts with 0v – not the opposite.  

   

One of my concerns were damaging the door by extending the bolt without having the door in the correct position.  Meaning the bolt would miss it’s hole and it would push up and damage the bottom of the door.    

   

After a little research, I found this lock has a safety circuit in it.  The force of the bolt deployment is really low and  if the bolt can’t extend into a recess, the 12v is removed.  Saving the switch and any damage that could occur.  Keep in mind it’s designed to deploy into a female recess and then the bolt is designed to operate in shear.  The bolt isn’t designed to punch holes in wooden door frames – or our RV-10 doors.  

   

Okay, now that I’ve shaken this fresh chicken in front of ALL the lions, have at it.  I’ve got a Houston RV builders group lunch to go to….  J  

   

   

http://tinyurl.com/ybktr2s  

   

[img]cid:image001.png(at)01CA96B9.3E71C500[/img]

image001.png

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Ron B.

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Nova Scotia

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

What about getting out after an incident and power is not available, like fire?

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

No power = A retracted bolt.



Anytime power is removed (Electrical System Failure, Broken Wire, Popped

Fuse, Damaged Switch, etc...) the bolt will retract and allow you to

operate the door normally.

BTW: Michael, that's a good thought on the electromagnetic aspect.

Definitely something to think about.



Phil



--

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

Maybe just shielding the solenoid with Mu Metal: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/magneticcompassshield.php?  This is used in a variety of applications like test equipment where you need to contain electromagnetic fields from sensitive circuitry.  Most EFIS systems use remote magnetometers so the real issue would be an old school compass.  The vertical card variety are more sensitive than the fluid filled variety. 



Bob

N442PM (flying)



--

Ron B.

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Nova Scotia

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

So your saying that when the power is removed the bolt/pin retracts? If so what about an in flight power failure and the aft door pin happens to be out of place? I know what if, what if, but that is what we are trying to protect ourselves from.

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

Well, you'd probably lose your door.  



By the time we get to compounding what-if's, I'd take any of those bets.

Especially when they're both remote possibilities.



I'm not an odds maker or statistician, but I'd bet those are some pretty

long odds.  My wife has a PhD minor is statistics, maybe we can ask

her...  



Phil

	

--

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

One question, anyone have any dimensions on the lock?  

  

 One variation, I wonder if installing it along the bottom of the door would solve door bulge issues in addition to the extra security in keeping the door closed.



--- On Sat, 1/16/10, Ron B. <cfxoa(at)klis.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Ron B. <cfxoa(at)klis.com>

Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 6:17 PM



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Ron B." <cfxoa(at)klis.com (cfxoa(at)klis.com)>



So your saying that when the power is removed the bolt/pin retracts? If so what about an in flight power failure and the aft door pin happens to be out of place? I know what if, what if, but that is what we are trying to protect ourselves from.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=281848#281848

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Lis   --> http://www.======================





	
 [quote][b]

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

Okay, I just reread the initial post, disregard my comment about a variation on the idea, turns out there's no variation.  The whole thing sounds pretty slick in my opinion, thanks for the idea.

  

 Marcus

 do not archive



--- On Sat, 1/16/10, MARCUS COOPER <coop85(at)verizon.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: MARCUS COOPER <coop85(at)verizon.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 6:52 PM



      One question, anyone have any dimensions on the lock?  

  

 One variation, I wonder if installing it along the bottom of the door would solve door bulge issues in addition to the extra security in keeping the door closed.





	
 [quote][b]

tomhanaway

Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

I like this idea and am just thinking it through.



If the deployment force is low (i.e., if door not aligned, then bolt doesn't go into door space), is there a way to tell if in fact the bolt did or did not go into the door space?



I'd like to be able to verify that in fact the deadbolt extended.



Tom Hanaway

Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

The lock ships with an LED, but I have to check the documentation and see how it is used. But I'll bet it is used to indicate the bolt position.

 

 I might consider repackaging the lock a bit.  The mid fuse decks are structural, so I don't want to cut too big of a hole in it. But just drilling a hole big enough for the bolt to pass through would be fine.

 

 Phil

 

 ---

Ron B.

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Nova Scotia

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Fresh Meat: New Door Idea

I'm not trying to knock your idea. I'm all for a solution, and thanks for taking the time thinking forward. I'm just thinking of what ifs and then a more informed solution can be had. I'm probably one of the more forgetful persons around so a good solution, I'm all for.

Ron

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