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Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

That looks like an interesting book.  Only about $15 in the Amazon new&used section.  



I looked up the book that came with Falcon 4.0 - "Art Of The Kill" by Pete Bonanni.  It's an easy read for those who don't want to get too serious.  As I recall it also came with video classroom lessons from Pete Bonanni.



Knowing very little about this subject, I think it would be interesting to do some basic air combat maneuvers against another aircraft.  Seems there were a few concepts in the book that were interesting yet safe for the beginner.  Obviously this would take planning, coordination and qualified instruction.

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

But the issue Tim is not who discovered it first, or who trained with it when.     

The issue is:  Can you do it now, if you were not military first.    

  

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK   

p.s.  And by the way, I am sure you are correct on all the statements that you made.    

 

  

--

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Agree 100% Doc, well said.  I only know a few non-military types that I’d go to the merge with and they were all trained by military fighter guys over a period of months.  

   

If the RPA wants to prevent “BFM training in a weekend”, which I agree with, that’s OK with me.  What I want to know is, if a few “ACM” guys show up at an RPA event and want to go fight amongst themselves, will the RPA try to prohibit it.  

   

Hey, who was your ex-marine helo bud?  Did he fly Vipers?  

   

Hitman  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp

 Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:04 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: BFM/ACM  

  

       

Hitman,  

    

It is what you do and are comfortable with. I for sure am not saying not to do ACM if it is between mutually consenting adults. You brief it and are comfortable with the players , then fly it. But lets not do this in the context of the RPA.   

    

I fly BFM occassionally with my "buds" from the squadron. I am not sure I would take my ex-marine helicopter pilot bud out for a 1 v 1 BFM sortie since he has no prior ACM training. But he is ex-military for what it is  worth.   

    

It is skill and apptitude. That is not learned in a 3 day course. I will bet your friend learned this skill over a minimum of a year's time unless he got to fly 3 to 4 days a week 1 to 2 sorties a day and had academics in between for a month or so. It takes time and exposure to see how an unsafe situation is or can be developing. How  what started as a rolling reposition on a level turning bandit aircraft that abruptly pulls to the vertical now creating a flight path confliction. Now in a heartbeat you are going to have to convert this to a vertical rolling scissor or opt for unloading and extending to exit the fight. If you nose is already committed to the vertical with your bid for a rolling reposition and with his pull to the vertical you are now commited to the vertical also. In the one move, your opponent just changed the whole architecture of the fight in a heartbeat. A 3 day wonder would not even see it coming nor would they quickly recognize that they have a flight path confliction, if the fight was inside 2000 to 1000 feet say, you and he are in trouble. Outside of 2000 ft, to 3000 ft in our aircraft, a newbie might be able to see that and react.   

    

How many civilians off the street even understood what  I was just talking about? Not many, I am sure.  

    

I know I sound like I am lecturing to a pro. Sorry, I do not mean to sound that way. I know you know all of what I was saying, but there are those out there that want to taste ACM and do not have the back ground to go there safely.  

    

Doc  

    

   

  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: John W. Hilterman Jr. (johnhilterman1(at)cox.net)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)  

    

Sent: 4/12/2006 10:44:46 AM   

    

Subject: RE: Re: BFM/ACM  

    

   

  

Two comments:  

     This logic means we      better all stop doing ANY kind of maneuvering on the airplane that puts us      close to 4 Gs, aerobatics included.   
I disagree with the      comment if you didnt learn it in the military, youll never      do so.  Theres a Yak-50 pilot on the west coast that      wasnt trained in the military but was trained by a fellow F-18 pilot      buddy of mine.  On any given day well trade bullets 50% of the      time.  Hes one of the few individuals Im willing to go fangs      out with because I know he wont bust our ACM training rules      which we brief prior to every flight.  I also know that during an      engagement he understands and recognizes those sight pictures which can      lead to a bad day at the office and will pull the fangs in prior to it      getting dangerous.    

   

My two cents.  

   

Hitman  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew Blahnick

 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:22 PM

 To: Steve Dalton; yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Cc: Drew Blahnick

 Subject: Re: BFM/ACM  

  

     

Good stuff, I'm sure Al and Brian Lloyd are itchin to respond !    

    

   

    

Drew  

    



 

 Steve Dalton <sdalton(at)goeaston.net> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

Yall,  

    

   

    

At the risk of flogging a very deceased equine I offer the following for your consideration:  

    

   

    

Last Friday my sons F-16 squadron lost a jet in the Atlantic.  Thankfully, the young man flying it survived.  Here is the story as related to me by folks knowledgeable of the incident.    

    

   

    

This experienced F-16 pilot was getting checked out as an Instructor Pilot (IP).  His wingman was a very experienced IP (playing the rookie).  The mission they were flying was the MOST BASIC of Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) sorties, offensive perch set-ups.  In these set-ups the rookie (played by the experienced IP) starts behind the target (the IP trainee).  At the fights on call, the IP trainee starts a canned high-g level turn to give the rookie a simple BFM problem to solve.  This is as basic as it gets, BFM 101.  There is NO simpler BFM mission!  All he did was start a level hard turn!!!!!  

    

   

    

But, as he looks over his shoulder to monitor the rookie, the IP trainee g-locs (blacks out due to gs).  He goes to sleep, in full afterburner, and his hand stops pulling on the stick.  As a result, he heads downhill toward the water at Warp 9.  Thankfully, he wakes up in time to see the water RAPIDLY approaching and ejects.  The jet hits the water = second after ejection, but he swings in the chute for almost two minutes.  Get a feel for the downhill speed on the jet?!!?  

    

   

    

Both legs and arms are broken in the 600-700 KT ejection, but he climbs in his raft and is eventually rescued.  The rescue is a whole story in itself!!  The ACES II ejection seat is AWESOME!!!  

    

   

    

OK, so how does to this apply to us Yak/CJ people?  Simply this:  It could easily happen to one of us!!!!!  

    

   

    

It may have taken 9 gs to put this guy to sleep.  But, would 7, 6, 5, or even 4 gs be enough for one of us older, less physical specimens?  Folks, this was the most simple, the most basic BFM mission there is!!  And, yet, its not the first time this has happened.  I lost a friend at Nellis AFB in the mid-80s IN THE EXACT SAME SCENERIO.  Glen Hessel hit the ground so fast/hard a Park Ranger a mile away phoned in a report of an earthquake.   

    

   

    

I hope this explains why I do not advocate any formal RPA teaching of BFM/ACM.  Including defensive threat reactions like done out west at All Red Star (thats all this guy did, one simple level turn!  And he barely survived).    

    

   

    

I know some of us will continue to do BFM/ACM, myself included, amongst ourselves.  But PLEASE consider the risks.  I also know it sounds egotistical and arrogant, but you just cant teach BFM/ACM to guys/gals who do not have the background that fighter pilots have.  Its one of those things that if you didnt learn it (and survive it) in the military, youll never do so.  You missed your chance.  Just like most (all?) of us missed our chance to be brain surgeons/major league baseball players/rock stars/Bill Gates/NASCAR drivers/astronauts/Pope John Paul/etc.  We all followed different paths and each of us has certain talents and experiences.  We all offer something unique to the group, but, we all arent fighter pilots.  

    

   

    

OK, flame proof undies strapped onfire away!  

    

   

    

Fly safe,  

    

Steve Dalton  

    

   

    

   

    

   

  	
  

       

  

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman5/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http:/beta.messenger.yahoo.com]Call regular phones from your PC[/url] and save big.

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

   

cjpilot710(at)aol.com Jim "Pappy" Goolsby wrote:  

 	  Quote: 	
		  I do not feel the association has the resources nor  

expertise to set up a ACM/BFM course that would be  

safe for its members.  Simple as that.  Yes, "training"  

is a good thing, but some "training" is unnecessary.   

Outside the military, ACM is a ego trip - period.   

Ego has killed more people than weather.   

Just about every accident could be traced some way back to ego.    

Pappy, as one of the oldest and most experienced pilots in this group, I respect your abilities and experience above most people in this world.  I say this in advance because I can not agree with most of the statements you made in this post, but that does not take away from my respect for you as a pilot.    
	


I listened carefully to your point of view that said: "The Association" does not have the resources or expertise to set up an ACM/BFM course that would be safe for its members".  Candidly, I wish you had just stopped right there, because your opinion in that regard is warranted and respected.      

However, going on to say that "some training is unnecessary" tends to really bother me Pappy.  How "necessary" was it for us to go to the Moon?  Were the deaths of all that worked towards that goal just a bunch of people with big ego's?  Maybe that is indeed true.  But another truth is that there are very few fighter pilots on this planet that have engaged the enemy and lived that did NOT have "big ego's". Further, some people have earned the right to express a "big ego" concerning certain aspects of flying, you being one of them.    

"Ego" has multiple definitions, one being: "An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit."  The other: "Appropriate pride in oneself; self-esteem."  

While you might find problems with the first, I am in fact talking about the second.     

For example, I would like to fly a P-51 SOLO someday.  Is that "necessary"?  NO!  Will doing it increase my ego?  Oh you betcha!  Is there something wrong with that?  Your answer does not matter... because I'm going to do it anyway, getting some "unnecessary training" in the process.    

 	  Quote: 	
		  The wings can be pulled off any airplane.  It does not take G lock to do it.   

Egos have a higher tolerance to G stress loads than our airplanes.   

The Yaks and CJ's were not built to do this.  They are trainers NOT fighters.     

I can not speak about anything concerning a CJ.  I can say that the YAK-52 was built to offer training for UNLIMITED level aerobatics.  That includes tumbles and gyroscopic maneuvers.  Very few if ANY fighters were build to withstand the G loading of a modern day unlimited Aerobatic Trainer.    
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  In our careers we've watched more than one ego trip,  

take the wings off perfectly good airplanes and become lawn darts  

- with a hell of a lot more experience pilots than you at the controls.   

That is of course true, and let's hope that they died with smiles on their faces because they were doing something that they loved to do.  People die doing all manner of things, and other people line up and pay money to watch them do it.  I'd like to think that as human beings, we are limited only by our desires, our imaginations, and our willingness to suffer in order to achieve our goals in life, no matter what color or sex we are, how old we are, whether we served in the military first, or whether we wear a freaking flight suit for that matter.  If I want to risk becoming a lawn dart either from diving out of an airplane with a chute that doesn't open, or by flying an airplane to the very limit of it's capabilities, I believe that is my choice, and that good people in this world should only try to point me in a direction to do it with more safety rather than advising me not to do it at all.    
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  In theory "training" makes a safe pilot but "training" can also  

led a pilot into a complacency where he goes too far into that  

part of the flight envelope for his abilities.    

And he or she will then either die, or live.  Those that live realize they need more training.  How many of us have NOT put ourselves into some situation where we had a moment of pure terror because of some stupid move we did?  Maybe just myself, but I refuse to really believe that.     
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  My personal view is that the Darwin factor controls the ego.  

i.e. "There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots."   

My personal view is that I would rather die in a big ball of fire having the time of my life rather than laying in a hospital drooling out my mouth with 50 tubes stuck into every natural hole (and some unnatural ones) keeping my safe old self alive until the last possible second.    
	


Some people drive those race cars Pappy and others sit there and watch them do it.  I believe you to be one of the former.  Please do not expect me to be one of the latter.    

Mark "Bad Bullets" Bitterlich 

N50YK

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Hitman,

 Dav "Dimmer" DeSimmon. No he got out after coming home from Viet Nam. He is a dentist now.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

 	  BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi wrote: 	
		  But the issue Tim is not who discovered it first, or who trained with it when.?    

The issue is:? Can you do it now, if you were not military first.?   

  

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK   

p.s.? And by the way, I am sure you are correct on all the statements that you made.?   

 

  

-- 	




I would say yes with proper instruction from someone who has the knowhow to teach it. I would venture to say that only a handful of folks out there who are NOT miltary can train a full up dog fight and call it safe. Hitman mentioned one of them and I know exactly who he is talking about. But as Hitman said, he learned from a former Hornet driver. I think, with only a few exceptions, that training should come from military sources. 



On the RPA front; I could give a rats ass what the RPA thinks about it. They are not a governing body and if they do not endorse it, who cares. It will not prevent anyone from doing it. If you are at a RPA "sponsored" event, find your own little slice of sky and have at it. I find it odd that the RPA will hold a amateur aerobatic event at ARS this year but does not suppport ACM anymore. Both can get you killed and more have died from the former. 



For those that want to fight..go fight. If you ball up an airplane, that sucks. If you are inverted at 15 feet AGL pushing for a outside loop and your wings snap, that sucks too. 



Maybe the RPA should support ownership and basic operation and leave the rest to the owners.



Curious how many folks have been killed doing ACM versus aerobatics in the Yak or CJ?

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

 	  Scooter wrote: 	
		  That looks like an interesting book.  Only about $15 in the Amazon new&used section.  



I looked up the book that came with Falcon 4.0 - "Art Of The Kill" by Pete Bonanni.  It's an easy read for those who don't want to get too serious.  As I recall it also came with video classroom lessons from Pete Bonanni.



Knowing very little about this subject, I think it would be interesting to do some basic air combat maneuvers against another aircraft.  Seems there were a few concepts in the book that were interesting yet safe for the beginner.  Obviously this would take planning, coordination and qualified instruction. 	




I have both the video and the book and have had them since the early 90's. Cool stuff for the beginner and the video has a bunch of dudes with guts and beards in the audience in flight suits asking ACM questions. Some of you would get a kick out of it. Bonnani is now (I think he still is) the Wing CO of the VA ANG. If you will notice in Falcon 4.0. the airplanes are VA birds. 



Good luck finding the video! If someone wants a copy of it, I can make one. Just dont tell Pete. 



If you like online sims, go old school and get IL-2 Sturmovik. Makes the rest of the WWII stuff look like Microsoft Flight Sim.

Steve Dalton

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training at the

hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military instructor,

I get the same training. And it doesn't matter if you are in the

military or not. <-----



Brian,



In theory you are correct.  But, my point is made by the first word in

your second sentence above.  Your theory begins with the word "If".



In the real civilian world that "if" will never be achieved.  Because in

the civilian world you won't fly a hi-performance plane to it's limits,

everyday, for years, with talented experienced instructors (who all have

combat time), with two hour briefings and two hour debriefings of every

flight, which includes HUD video analysis of your every move, on an ACMI

range, etc., etc., etc.



The point is not that military pilots are better, smarter, or anything

else (except maybe better looking!) .  The point is that they learned

BFM/ACM in an environment that included EVERY resource available;

resulting in a quality, and quantity of training that is not

reproducible in the civilian world.



There are some things we just can't read all about and then go out and

do proficiently and/or safely.  Take Navy SEALS.  Could one of us, in

the civilian world, go get training to qualify as a SEAL?  Of course

not.  Unless we went through the real SEAL course.



That's what I'm saying about trying to teach BFM/ACM in the civilian

world.  It's NOT about the people/pilots.  It's just not possible to

recreate all that the military provided, during YEARS of continuous

training.  And they STILL lose guys/gals doing simple BFM.



Ref: comparing the dangers of BFM/ACM with aerobatics.



While flying acro your total brain power is concentrated solely on your

own flying.  During a BFM/ACM engagement you use MOST of your

concentration for "stuff" outside your airplane.  You fly by instinct,

habit patterns and muscle memory alone.  If you "think" about flying

your plane, you lose (die).  Acro is safer because of more available

brain power to use to stay in control of your plane.  Along with only

having to maintain situational awareness of what you alone are doing,

and not also what the other guy is doing now, how you'll counter that,

what he might do next, and how you'll counter that.......



Also consider, if you screw-up flying acro, the only person you kill is

yourself.  In a BFM/ACM engagement your error could also kill the "other

guy".  If I'm the "other guy" I'm gonna really be pissed when you kill

me because YOU goofed.  



I have enjoyed this discussion and hope I get to meet you someday.

Maybe we could go out and fly a 1 v1.  <big grin>



Cheers,

Steve

MFilucci(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

In a message dated 4/13/2006 3:34:37 PM Central Standard Time, sdalton(at)goeaston.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  There are some things we just can't read all about and then go out and

do proficiently and/or safely.  Take Navy SEALS.  Could one of us, in

the civilian world, go get training to qualify as a SEAL?  Of course

not.  Unless we went through the real SEAL course. 	


 There is another, missing portion of this whole discussion--whether it be Navy Seals or military fighter pilots, there is an extremely rigorous screening process before any training begins--once the training begins, there is a rigorous weeding-out process. In the end, only the best of the best advance and complete the training.

  

 In our environment, the only screening that takes place is monetary--that is, can you write the check (or borrow the money) to pay for an airplane?

  

 The rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would say, is that these military candidates are all relatively young and in their prime both mentally and physically--even given that advantage, the majority do not make the cut in the end.

  

 Mike

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

 	  Quote: 	
		    I'm going to disagree with this, because...I can.  I don't see how civilians could ever (want to) train the way the military does.  1 full year of 12 hour days, 5 days a week. 3 sorties a day, normally 2 flights and 1 sim.  Weekly written tests, daily stand up tests.  Memorization of every possible emergency procedure and the ability to state verbatim chronologically how you would handle any given situation given only 2 variables.  Oh btw, you are required to work out at the gym at least 10 hours a week and document what you did, plus handle all of the other things in life like studying, doing laundry, eating...that seems to fall by the way side most of the time...I think I was at my skinniest weight when I was in UPT.   

   

  Anyway, it's tough, it's really really tough.  I don't think even  the airlines are that rigorous.  I know they have long days when they are upgrading etc, but I don't think that agony ever goes on for a year.  Maybe 4 months of LINE/LOFT etc.  But it is the same principal, you completely surrender yourself to thinking, breathing, eating, living flying in a fire hose environment.

   

  I don't claim to know what the RPA does for training, but even if it requires 10 weekends a year to upgrade to ACM/BFM/Formation whatever....it will *never* compare to the military training.  Doesn't make it bad or worse or anything...it just is, what it is.

   

  Signing off with my two cents...

  Smash

--> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd 



That is a silly statement. If I go through all the same training at the

hands of a civilian instructor or at the hands of a military instructor,

I get the same training. And it doesn't  matter if you are in the

military or not. <-----

	


 		Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Mozam and Smash say it  all.   And I still say RPA does not the resources to do it  right.  I'd like to have it but we don't.

  

 You guys can go ahead  and fire away at me.  I shan't be here.  I'm off to fly the  bombers.  And yes I am a better pilot than you because I fly  bombers 

  

 Pappy (just a hair from  logging 500 hours of formation time) nite nite

  

  

 _____________________________________

 I'm going to disagree with this, because...I can.  I don't see how  civilians could ever (want to) train the way the military does.  1  full year of 12 hour days, 5 days a week. 3 sorties a day, normally 2  flights and 1 sim.  Weekly written tests, daily stand up tests.   Memorization of every possible emergency procedure and the ability to state  verbatim chronologically how you would handle any given situation given only 2  variables.  Oh btw, you are required to work out at the gym at least 10  hours a week and document what you did, plus handle all of the other things in  life like studying, doing laundry, eating...that seems to fall by the way side  most of the time...I think I was at my skinniest weight when I was in  UPT.   

  

 Anyway, it's tough, it's really really tough.  I don't think even the  airlines are that rigorous.  I know they have long days when they are  upgrading etc, but I don't think that agony ever goes on for a year.  Maybe  4 months of LINE/LOFT etc.  But it is the same principal, you completely  surrender yourself to thinking, breathing, eating, living flying in a fire hose  environment.

  

 I don't claim to know what the RPA does for training, but even if it  requires 10 weekends a year to upgrade to ACM/BFM/Formation whatever....it will  *never* compare to the military training.  Doesn't make it bad or worse or  anything...it just is, what it is.

  

 Signing off with my two cents...

 Smash

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

At the risk of prolonging the agony of this thread...



After reading what some of you had to say I am convinced that BFM/ACM is a bad idea for civilian pilots - but I think the case was overstated.  I haven't seen the syllabus of one of these military programs but I would think that a significant portion of it is devoted to things found only in high-performance military aircraft.   I think if you pared it down to a one v. one encounter in "low" performance aircraft you would have a drastically simpler syllabus.  



If someone were to put together a safe program for the Yak, for example, I can't imagine that it would be like "drinking from a firehose".  There would be no complex checklists to remember (no more than we have anyway).  No weapons systems.  No two v. one or one v. two or ten v. one.  No radars, ecm or eccm or ecccm.  No 9 g maneuvers.



It would be interesting if someone wrote about some of their BFM/ACM encounters and published it in the red star newsletter (or somewhere).  It would be interesting to read about and might shed some light on what it's really all about (especially for us guys who haven't done it and probably never will).

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Steve Dalton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In the real civilian world that "if" will never be achieved.  Because in

 the civilian world you won't fly a hi-performance plane to it's limits,


	


No, we will be flying CJ6As and Yak-52s.



And all your points are good. I don't disagree with any of them.



This did get a bit far afield from the original discussion which was 

that the RPA was, once again, deciding for us what is best instead of 

leaving the decision where it belongs -- with the pilots involved.



Let me see if I can put all this stuff in a nutshell:



1. ACM is potentially dangerous.



2. If you can dedicate millions of dollars and thousands of hours to its 

practice you will be better and safer at it than if you only dedicate a 

few hundred dollars and a handful of hours.



3. You depend on the other guy to Do The Right Thing and he or she might 

not.



I agree 100% with these two statements.



Now, the sixty-four-dollar question is: can we do basic ACM safely, at 

least as safely as we do, say, mass formation? I think this is where the 

real discussion lies.



Has anyone thought much about what happens should someone lose it in the 

middle of a big formation? Not a lot of outs there. But there seems to 

be a great deal of emphasis on doing big formations. I can see depending 

on one other person doing the right thing but what about depending on 20 

other people doing the right thing?



(And no, I am not pointing a finger at mass-form being dangerous but 

just bringing it up for thought and comparison.)



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have enjoyed this discussion and hope I get to meet you someday.

 Maybe we could go out and fly a 1 v1.  <big grin>


	


Sure, and you will wax my ass. No question about that. But every time 

you do I will learn from you. Who knows, I may have the aptitude and 

eventually my skill will reach the limitation of the airframe and you 

will find it a lot harder to do.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

I think you've also got to consider the mindset of the pilot.  A military pilot is being evaluated, graded and most likely has a significant amount of ego invested in it.  I think the average civilian pilot, me anyway, would have the following priorities.  Number one:  keep me alive.  Two:  keep my airplane safe.  Three:  try to beat the other guy.  If I lose the fight, big deal, I'm just having fun.



I don't think the RPA should get involved in this.  I think a new rogue organization should be formed...  the RPUFA - Red Pilots Ultimate Fighting Association.  They should create a five mile square "insurance free" zone ten miles out in the ocean (what happens here stays here) and have at it.

Steve Dalton

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: Re: BFM/ACM

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sure, and you will wax my ass. No question about that. But every time 

you do I will learn from you. Who knows, I may have the aptitude and 

eventually my skill will reach the limitation of the airframe and you 

will find it a lot harder to do. 	




Brian,



Don't sell yourself short.  I wasn't trying to imply who'd win, I was poking fun at ourselves for agrueing about the safety of it, and then going out to do it!   



Folks are going to continue to "dogfight" as long as there are planes to fly, myself included.  I just wanted the inexperienced to fully understand the risks.



Fly Safe,

Steve

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Steve Dalton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> Sure, and you will wax my ass. No question about that. But every time 

> you do I will learn from you. Who knows, I may have the aptitude and 

> eventually my skill will reach the limitation of the airframe and you 

> will find it a lot harder to do. 

 Brian,

 Don't sell yourself short.  

And I wasn't selling myself short, just recognizing my limitations. I 

try to keep my ego out of things and approach them as engineering 

problems as much as possible. That is the way good decisions get made.

OTOH, I have been good at everything I have tried to do in my life. No 

reason I can't acquit myself well here too. And then I will wax your 

ass! 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I wasn't trying to imply who'd win, I was poking fun at ourselves for agueing about the safety of it, and then going out to do it!   

Makes sense to me.

You know, there is this clear thread that keeps popping up whenever 

someone wants to take something away. They bring up the safety issue. It 

is damned difficult to argue individual rights and privileges against 

"safety" as we are seeing elsewhere in our political arena. It is how 

the FAA keeps taking more and more of our privileges away and it is how 

we ended up with outstanding legislation like the "Patriot" act and 

domestic surveillance in the US.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Folks are going to continue to "dogfight" as long as there are planes to fly, myself included.  I just wanted the inexperienced to fully understand the risks.

I am with you 100% on that. As a noob it is my decision to do this 

knowing that it is not the safest thing to do. If I want safe I will sit 

at home, watch TV, and let the the media tell me what to think.

Actually, if I really want to get into this I will watch reruns of 

"Friends" and "Seinfeld" and not even bother with news and political 

commentary.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

"Five percent of the people think.

  Ten percent of the people think they think.

  Eighty-five percent of the people would rather die than think."

        ---Thomas A. Edison

lacloudchaser(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: bfm/acm

Folks,

   

  I also don't think Brians post on the ACM/BFM was a "flame" (lots of use of that word lately), and not baiting you two folks in that post - what you saw was a reply to Steve personally (who sent me the post off list direct with yaklist in the addressing) and was simply a reflection based on recent positions / posts by these two pilots.  Not intended as a bait of any sorts,

   

  For those interested in this subject, including information from the underwriters on the impact of competitive dogfighting on policies, and on other important subjects such as the current plans for basic to advanced formation training, look for an article in the 2nd qtr RPA magazine...

   

  Apologize for any confusion on the original post,

   

  Drew

   

  Drew A. Blahnick

  RPA President

   305.803.9158  



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aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: BFM/ACM

Hey Pappy, after what I saw the BONES do in Afghanistan and Iraq.  I am tending to agree with you.  That Time Sensitive Targetting that those guys are able to do know...wow, what do we need fighters for?  For the off chance they will unbury one of their antiquitated former soviet union jets.  Good luck!  



cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		       

  You guys can go ahead and fire away at me.  I shan't be here.  I'm off to fly the bombers.  And yes I am a better pilot than you because I fly bombers 

   

  Pappy (just a hair from logging 500 hours of formation time) nite nite

   

   



	


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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Vipers forever, everything else is a target!

 doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: BFM/ACM

Until your AOA limiter kicks in and the Hornet goes nose on at 70 knots for the guns kill!  

Hitman  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp

 Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 4:00 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: BFM/ACM  

  

       

Vipers forever, everything else is a target!  

    

doc  

    

   

  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

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