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Flying on Snow with Wheels
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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

So . . here are several facts,

 I got a new IVO prop 2 weeks ago and after a weekend of flying on it the gear box was leaking so I had to send it out to get the seals replaced.  It is back and will be on tomorrow.  I am also preparing for a deployment in a few weeks so every moment enjoying the Fox is of utmost importance.  We are about to get hit by this crazy winter storm and depending on which site you read we will get between 3 and 18 inches of snow, 6 is realistic.  



I am assuming that with 21" Nanco tires that 6" of snow on the runway will not slow me down too much, maybe make my take off roll 300', and that as long as I take things slow and stay off the brakes except while slow taxiing things should be pretty non eventful.  Is there anything I am not expecting that might happen flying off of a snowy runway?  Anyone have any good stories about a similar situation.  I plan on having some fun flying over a completely white countryside, that is pretty rare here.

Thanks

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

I would advise against wheel landings in the snow C get the tail down so the plane doesn't have any chance to nose over.  I've flown my Avid in about 4" of snow with no problem and I have the big tires also C when it gets deeper than that the skis go on.  Take care C  Jim Chuk   Avids  Kitfox 4  Mn

[quote] Subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

 From: james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil

 Date: Thu C 28 Jan 2010 20:40:13 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 So . . here are several facts C

 I got a new IVO prop 2 weeks ago and after a weekend of flying on it the gear box was leaking so I had to send it out to get the seals replaced. It is back and will be on tomorrow. I am also preparing for a deployment in a few weeks so every moment enjoying the Fox is of utmost importance. We are about to get hit by this crazy winter storm and depending on which site you read we will get between 3 and 18 inches of snow C 6 is realistic. 

 I am assuming that with 21" Nanco tires that 6" of snow on the runway will not slow me down too much C maybe make my take off roll 300' C and that as long as I take things slow and stay off the brakes except while slow taxiing things should be pretty non eventful. Is there anything I am not expecting that might happen flying off of a snowy runway? Anyone have any good stories about a similar situation. I plan on having some fun flying over a completely white countryside C that is pretty rare here.

 Thanks

 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 The ink is still drying on my new certificate

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=283881#283881

 > 

 		 	   		  Hotmail: Free C trusted aect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

Many years ago when I was Chief Pilot for the Montana Fish and Game Dept, We 

had a pilot flying a super cub with the 24 in tundra tires. He landed in 

about 18 ins of snow that had a slight crust on it. The drag of the large 

tires caused the airplane to roll over on its back.



Floran Higgins

Helena, Mt.

Speedster

912 ULS

---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Flying on Snow with Wheels

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		  So . . here are several facts,

 

I am assuming that with 21" Nanco tires that 6" of snow on the runway will not slow me down too much, maybe make my take off roll 300', and that as long as I take things slow and stay off the brakes except while slow taxiing things should be pretty non eventful.  Is there anything I am not expecting that might happen flying off of a snowy runway?  Anyone have any good stories about a similar situation.  I plan on having some fun flying over a completely white countryside, that is pretty rare here.

Thanks 	




I would exercise extreme caution.. While 6" does not seem like much, if it is a real light fluffy snow, you should be OK.  If it is wet and heavy, you stand a good chance of getting the opportunity to buy a new prop, rebuild the engine and repair lots of other dings and bends.  I have flown mine with the 24" tires in about 6" of snow and it was enough to make me get the new ski bottoms put on and not fly again till I had the ski's installed... and I like to do "stupid" stuff.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

But look at it this way....if his plane should only go over to  

vertical, it would present a wonderful opportunity to change those  

pesky fuel tanks without having to borrow a ladder.



No snow here to worry about....I took the skis off the other day...6  

minutes, a record for Howland Field ski removal....ok, so nobody else  

on Howland Field has skis....it's still a record, dammit!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 843 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~157 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:19 AM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 WurlyBird wrote:

> So . . here are several facts,

>

> I am assuming that with 21" Nanco tires that 6" of snow on the  

> runway will not slow me down too much, maybe make my take off roll  

> 300', and that as long as I take things slow and stay off the  

> brakes except while slow taxiing things should be pretty non  

> eventful.  Is there anything I am not expecting that might happen  

> flying off of a snowy runway?  Anyone have any good stories about  

> a similar situation.  I plan on having some fun flying over a  

> completely white countryside, that is pretty rare here.

> Thanks

 I would exercise extreme caution.. While 6" does not seem like  

 much, if it is a real light fluffy snow, you should be OK.  If it  

 is wet and heavy, you stand a good chance of getting the  

 opportunity to buy a new prop, rebuild the engine and repair lots  

 of other dings and bends.  I have flown mine with the 24" tires in  

 about 6" of snow and it was enough to make me get the new ski  

 bottoms put on and not fly again till I had the ski's installed...  

 and I like to do "stupid" stuff.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Flying on Snow with Wheels

They always seem to over estimate the bejeezus out of winter storms.  Even so we will still have about 6 inches on the ground tomorrow.  I am not sure if they have any ability to clear off the run ways here so i just wanted to be prepared if I wanted to go flying and there was still a bunch of snow.  I would expect that there will probably only be about 4" or so on the black top but we will see.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Flying on Snow with Wheels

James,



depends on snow conditions. 

ie frozen crusty , powder, wet   etc



I would be careful .  



I have flown in up to 10 inches of fresh snow over grass  with Kingfox 21" tires. Would not advise to do it.  



3 inches of snow can ruin your day just the same. Remeber there are a lot that cannot land a Kitfox on runway with no snow let alone on one with snow or drifts.  



be careful

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

All,

Landing in snow on wheels is a great topic to ponder before actually doing

it, it is your plane, if you wreck it you will be the one who has to fix it,

or worse. With that said, I have done it on frozen lakes in Upper Michigan,

we had a winter back around 2003 that was cold with very little snow (about

2" in places on the ice), so myself and several friends decided to hop

around the area and land on several lakes and rivers. There is a couple pics

of my fox and 2 Kolb's in our chapter newsletter page 3 at the below links.

Enjoy. (PS Plane in the pics is my 4-XL with a rotax 503DCDI)



http://www.eaa439.org/newsletters/Jan%20NL10.pdf 



http://www.eaa439.org/photos/index.htm

Lloyd Cudnohufsky

Model 5 912ul IVO IFA

Iron Mountain Mi.

Do not archive



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

Similar subject...landing on lakes. I was flying with my flight  

instructor yesterday (Grumman Widgeon) and we got to talking about  

landing on the ice (we've had a goofy year of cold and  above- 

freezing and little snow) and he said "If you don't, you'll never  

have to wish that you didn't."  Pretty cautious advice, but not as  

much fun as actually doing it. Right now I think the ice is strong  

enough, but it's all ice...no snow to help the steering, so I'd want  

to make sure the shanty's were few and far between.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 844 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~156 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Jan 31, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <7suds(at)chartermi.net>



 All,

 Landing in snow on wheels is a great topic to ponder before  

 actually doing

 it, it is your plane, if you wreck it you will be the one who has  

 to fix it,

 or worse. With that said, I have done it on frozen lakes in Upper  

 Michigan,

 we had a winter back around 2003 that was cold with very little  

 snow (about

 2" in places on the ice), so myself and several friends decided to hop

 around the area and land on several lakes and rivers. There is a  

 couple pics

 of my fox and 2 Kolb's in our chapter newsletter page 3 at the  

 below links.

 Enjoy. (PS Plane in the pics is my 4-XL with a rotax 503DCDI)

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Flying on Snow with Wheels

From all I have gathered here and else where, I was prepared to go flying if there was up to 4-5" on the runway.  It was a very cold storm and it was cold fluffy snow.  I fear I might have lost the only opportunity I will have for a while.  My plane is broke hard so I will not get the chance to fly before all of this melts.  Oh well.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

My advice: If in doubt, DON'T



Floran Higgins

Helena, Mt

Speedster

912 ULS

---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

Lynn, landing on ice is no big deal.  The rudder does the work.  Just land 

into the wind and ensure nothing in front of you and watch for snowmobiles 

screaming across the lake.  If you see cars parked out there, the ice will 

be fine.

Go for it.

Deke



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

Hi Deke-

I haven't seen ANY cars on the lakes around here, just the shanties.  

We've had some strange weather down here....very cold for awhile,  

then warming.....shanties disappear....then this latest  

cold....shanties come from out of the woodwork.  And where I live,  

the snow hasn't been all that great. At one point we were at 12"  

compared to 40" same time last year. But it's not 12" on the ground,  

it's 3" here and melt, 6" and melt to 3" etc, etc. So to get some fun  

flying on skis in, I'd have to fly over by Kalamazoo at least, or go  

to the east side of Michigan. I think I left the skis on for maybe 10  

hours, until I took 'em off. Luckily, it takes about 10-12 minutes to  

install, and 6 minutes to remove...no jacking required....so if it  

dumps snow here, I'm ready for the mission at a cup of coffee  

notice. : )



I was also thinking that if I did a ground loop on the ice, the prop  

oughtta get me out of it, right?

Oh, the other thing about me be apprehensive about the lake across  

the road....there had been a big open spot for the longest time, and  

that kept my pucker factor at the red-line for quite a while. Locals  

here said they hadn't seen the lake that open in their memory.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 844 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~156 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Feb 1, 2010, at 8:23 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 Lynn, landing on ice is no big deal.  The rudder does the work.   

 Just land into the wind and ensure nothing in front of you and  

 watch for snowmobiles screaming across the lake.  If you see cars  

 parked out there, the ice will be fine.

 Go for it.

 Deke



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

Lynn, just walk across the street and drill a hole in the ice.  If it's at 

least 5" (I'm sure yours is at least that thick) you would be perfectly safe 

with a good margin.  No snow is a good thing for ice.  I means that it 

freezes even more.

As for landing, there really isn't anything to worry about.  Just a blip of 

power will straighten you out, but it isn't really much of an issue.  Forget 

the skis, just land using the tires, but watch out for those ice fishing 

holes.  Probably best to drag your landing area first to check for anything 

that might swallow you up.

It's actually a non event.

Deke



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

I was awfully tempted to land today while flying, but figured I'd  

wait a day. I must be gettin' chickens**t in my old age. Yeah, the  

skis are off for now, and I was heading west just to see where the  

"snow belt" ended down here, and I got turned around by a Hillsdale  

weather check that said "vis 1-1/4 miles...light snow...1600 ceiling.  

This was at the same time that Jackson said something like 3500  

broken and 5000 broken, and those two 'ports are about 20 miles  

apart. That's how spotty the weather is down here. Of course when I  

turned to head back I took a little tour down BY Hillsdale, and sure  

enough, snow flurries. So I hung around closer to home for my flight.



Regarding the ice landing, I think I'll land tomorrow at Grass  

Lake...it's only about 2-3' deep, and has the reputation of freezing  

first around here, and given the single-digit lows and below freezing  

temps all day for the last week, it ought to hold up a Model IV  

Kitfox with a "lightened" prop....notice how I segued into that use  

of the airplane that this group is all about? Ya taught me well,  

Dekester. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 845.1 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~155 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Feb 1, 2010, at 12:33 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 Lynn, just walk across the street and drill a hole in the ice.  If  

 it's at least 5" (I'm sure yours is at least that thick) you would  

 be perfectly safe with a good margin.  No snow is a good thing for  

 ice.  I means that it freezes even more.

 As for landing, there really isn't anything to worry about.  Just a  

 blip of power will straighten you out, but it isn't really much of  

 an issue.  Forget the skis, just land using the tires, but watch  

 out for those ice fishing holes.  Probably best to drag your  

 landing area first to check for anything that might swallow you up.

 It's actually a non event.

 Deke

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

RobS

Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Durham, ME

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Flying on Snow with Wheels

Thought you might like to see this from Alton Bay, NH (B18) - picture was taken on 1/31/10.

Alton Bay B18.jpg

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

If you are thinking about using the lake across the road just take an isce

auger and test the thickness of the ice in several places..  BtW the ice

tends to refreeze like a plug in the ice but it also tend to freeze thicker

after a hole is drilled.  Whenever they find thin ice on the ice highways

going into Alaska they send a truck out to drill holes in the ice so when it

freezes again it freezes thicker.  They don't drill the ice to check

thickness...  some sort of ultrasound or radar.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

The fact that the ice fishermen haven't been going to the lake across  

the road so much this winter either says something about the lack of  

fish or the condition of the ice. I think I'll stop and ask them next  

time I see one. Right now there are zero shanties on that lake, but  

plenty of shanties or just tip-ups on other lakes in the area....and  

we've got plenty of 'em!

Thanks for the info, Noel.

And from what I've seen of the "Ice Truckers", maybe they drill a  

hole for their cameras, too. Man, the way those guys swear, you'd  

think they were overhauling a Jabiru. : )...or installing bungees on  

a Kitfox.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 845.1 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~155 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Feb 1, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 If you are thinking about using the lake across the road just take  

 an isce

 auger and test the thickness of the ice in several places..  BtW  

 the ice

 tends to refreeze like a plug in the ice but it also tend to freeze  

 thicker

 after a hole is drilled.  Whenever they find thin ice on the ice  

 highways

 going into Alaska they send a truck out to drill holes in the ice  

 so when it

 freezes again it freezes thicker.  They don't drill the ice to check

 thickness...  some sort of ultrasound or radar.



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

More than likely the fishing is crappy.  Pun intended...

Deke



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: Flying on Snow with Wheels

I'll borrow your recent "groan" for a response to that one, Deke.  : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 845.1 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~155 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Sensenich 55.5" x 46" Wood (winter)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Feb 2, 2010, at 7:04 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 More than likely the fishing is crappy.  Pun intended...

 Deke



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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