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riquenkelly(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:25 pm Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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Listers,
I am out of ideas. I have a Model IV with a 582 and Ducati ignition. About 50% of the time my aircraft fails ground check on one side of my ignition. I have checked for every loose connection I can think of. How frequently have the brushes on the flywheel failed? Could they be intermittent? I have replaced the DCI I thought was the failed unit but I'm not sure how likely it is for a DCI to fire intermittently.
Does anyone have any good suggestions? I've checked everything I can think of...
Thanks for the help,
Rique Gwin
Kitfox Model IV Classic
582 Grey
[quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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The good news is there are no brushes in the 582 magneto... It has a big magnet on the end of the crank. All the coils are static in they are mounted to the engine case.
The bad news is you can have an open in either a coil or one of the trigger units that tell the CDI when to fire.
You can download all the manuals on your engine here
http://www.rotax-owner.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=25
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of riquenkelly(at)aol.com
Sent: February 9, 2010 1:52 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue
Listers,
I am out of ideas. I have a Model IV with a 582 and Ducati ignition. About 50% of the time my aircraft fails ground check on one side of my ignition. I have checked for every loose connection I can think of. How frequently have the brushes on the flywheel failed? Could they be intermittent? I have replaced the DCI I thought was the failed unit but I'm not sure how likely it is for a DCI to fire intermittently.
Does anyone have any good suggestions? I've checked everything I can think of...
Thanks for the help,
Rique Gwin
Kitfox Model IV Classic
582 Grey
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Tom Jones
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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| Quote: | | I am out of ideas. I have a Model IV with a 582 and Ducati ignition. About 50% of the time my aircraft fails ground check on one side of my ignition. |
Rique, what happens to fail the mag check? Is it too much RPM drop or no RPM drop on one side? If one side is bad the engine should quit when you turn the good side off.
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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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At 09:21 PM 2/8/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | Does anyone have any good suggestions? I've checked everything I
can think of...
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Rique,
Two things from the historical files:
1. There have been instances of broken wires between the stator and
the DCI's. These were broken inside the cover and very difficult to
find. Try manipulating the wires vigorously while the engine's
running while hopefully staying out of the prop. (One more reason to
have a clutch.)
2. I had a plug wire back out of the DCI. They're screwed on like
plug caps and can fail. It was only found on disassembly because the
cover held it in place. It doesn't sound like this is the problem
because you would have corrected it when you replaced the DCI.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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Dick Maddux
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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Rique,
I have a 912 on my 4 but you have a similar ignition. As Guy mentioned it sounds like a broken wire. I had a problem like yours and it ended up being a broken red power wire to the CDI. I only found it by putting an ohm meter with one lead to ground and the other to one of my wife's sewing pins.
I worked my way down the wire coming from the CDI. I punched a hole thru the shielding and eventually found the break about 6 inches from the box. It was in a straight run and totally invisible from looking at it. A cut and a splice and I was back in business.
This might be your problem.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
Milton,Fl
PS: If you suspect a plug cap you could unscrew it, snip off about 1/4 inch of wire,lube with lithium grease and screw it back on.
[quote][b]
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riquenkelly(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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The engine quits when one switch is off (grounding the good side). But this is intermittent. I'll either get the normal 150-250 rpm drop and recovery or the engine will quit altogether. And this will happen within seconds of each other if I perform repeated checks.
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Fox5flyer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:48 am Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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Rique, as has already been mentioned, check your ground wires carefully for not only good contact, but good continuity also. Don't just wiggle them. Disconnect and reconnect ensuring no corrosion and ensure contact is clean. In the past there have been many owners who had similar problems with ignition wires that were separated inside the insulation. I believe that most of those were from the hot wire, but I'm sure it could be either one. It can be a difficult issue to resolve, but a careful step by step search should find the culprit.
One thing, did you build the aircraft? How many operating hours are on it?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
[quote] ---
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:06 am Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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On Wed, February 10, 2010 9:22 pm, riquenkelly(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
The engine quits when one switch is off (grounding the good side). But this is
intermittent. I'll either get the normal 150-250 rpm drop and recovery or the engine
will quit altogether. And this will happen within seconds of each other if I perform
repeated checks.
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Given those details, I would be suspect that one of the composite shielded (high
tension) leads is broken internally. What happens with a vibrating loose internal
connection is that there is intermittent connectivity and when it is open circuit is
can spark to ground somewhere between the discontinuity and the source. Sorry for not
naming the leads properly since I don't own your type setup.
Since this is a critical safety issue, I would replace all the high tension leads
rather than doing the painstaking process of tracking down the faulty one. Since when
the fault occurs it affects all the spark on one side of the redundant system, it is
probably the single lead that is common rather than the spark plug wires. Since I
don't know this setup I will use the analogous one for coil and distributor ignition
and imagine the engine had two distributors and two coils and two spark plugs per
cylinder. If you disabled one of the coils in say a check and the engine dies like
yours does intermittently where all spark plugs quit, the high tension lead that is
bad is the coil wire on the non-disabled coil. It will likely spark to ground
somewhere between the coil and the intermittent discontinuity. You have to transfer
this analogy to the DCI/magneto arrangement you have. So my fix would be to replace
both of the high tension coil wires rather than try to determine where the
intermittent discontinuity is and repairing it.
Now my analogy may be so poor this contribution amounts to little more than idle
hangar talk but I could be making some useful points.
1) replace all like failed components rather than repairing them since they all have
likely been exposed to similar vibration fatigue.
2) the spark plug wires aren't the problem, given your symptoms, it is a single wire
(or component) affecting only half of the redundant system.
[quote]
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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: Intermittent Ignition Issue |
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I assume you have tested the switch out of the circuit. That certainly sounds to me like a faulty switch. Or possibly some of the insulation worn off inside the shielding and allowing the P-Lead to short ( turn off the mag) to the shielding.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of riquenkelly(at)aol.com
Sent: February 11, 2010 1:52 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Intermittent Ignition Issue
The engine quits when one switch is off (grounding the good side). But this is intermittent. I'll either get the normal 150-250 rpm drop and recovery or the engine will quit altogether. And this will happen within seconds of each other if I perform repeated checks.
--
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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