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Tailwheel rigging

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

Kolb people,

  

   Every now and then, someone mentions how their Kolb seems "squirrelly" on roll out.

 I don't have a good handle on what the recommended cure for squirrellyness is.  IIRC, John H. has said stiffer springs (I think that's what he said) would help.  

  

   What rigging, from an experienced Kolb pilot, would make the Kolb aircraft tailwheel track the best?  Strong springs, medium springs, etc.

   I do know of a guy with a Firestar that thought his plane acted best with plenty of slack in the tailwheel springs chains.      ???

  

   Presently, I have the stock MkIII spring setup.  Should I try it like it is, first, and change to a different system later, if it seems warranted?

  

 Thanks for your opinions.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 central Missouri

 		 	   		  Hotmail: Powerful Free email widirect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now.  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:40 am Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 06:35:07 -0800

Sender: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com



 	  Quote: 	
		  

................. 
	


  What rigging, from an experienced Kolb pilot, would make the Kolb aircraft 

tailwheel track the best?  Strong springs, medium springs, etc.



  I do know of a guy with a Firestar that thought his plane acted best with 

plenty of slack in the tailwheel springs chains.      ???

 

  Presently, I have the stock MkIII spring setup.  Should I try it like it 

is, first, and change to a different system later, if it seems warranted?

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


Mike,



I have found several factors that could make the FireFly squirrelly while 

taxiing on hard surfaces.  At first I did not have positive camber. On a 

turn, this caused the outside wheel to drag and one had to use excessive 

rudder or tail wheel to force the FireFly to turn.  I bent things to get a 

little positive camber and that problem went away.  



Next in gusty cross winds, I noticed on high speed taxi the FireFly wanted 

to dart into the wind.  I checked the toe in and found it toed in.  Removed 

the toe in and the FireFly was much calmer during cross wind taxiing.



Then after many landings, I experienced my first ground loop when a tail 

wheel spring broke.  Replaced it with a new spring and a few landings later 

the second ordinal spring broke and I repeated the ground loop.  I decided 

to modify the tail wheel spring assembly  and to use compression springs.  I 

used some bicycle spokes, die springs and a few other parts to come up with 

a system that is lighter and I believe is less likely to fail.  It took 

several guesses as to which spring to use, but when I found the right one 

(stiffer), taxiing the FireFly was much tighter or direct than before the 

modification.



The tail wheel modifications can be seen at:



http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly133.html



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:24 am Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

Mike/Gang:

  

 Soft springs increase pilot rudder input and reduce  input to the tailwheel, keeping the pilot behind the power curve.

  

 I use Maule compresion springs on my  MKIII.

  

 Another mod I have used on all my Kolbs was  shortening the tail wheel strut considerably.  The standard configuration  of the 3/4" aluminum rod is extremely flexible in bending and  twist.

  

 To overcome this problem on my MKIII, I fabricated  a short tailwheel strut of .120" X 3/4" 4130 heat treated to 48 Rockwell.   It performs well, having survived several flights to Alaska as well as many  rough field landings here in the SE and out West.  Rough fields are not the  same as mowed grass strips.

  

 Shortening the tailwheel strut will also lower the  tail a bit and put the Kolb in a little nose high attitude.  This  facilitates better take offs and landings.

  

 john hauck

 MKIII

 Woodville, Florida - Raining, windy, cold and  grey....

  

  

 [quote]      Every now and then, someone    mentions how their Kolb seems "squirrelly" on roll out.

I don't have a good    handle on what the recommended cure for squirrellyness is.  IIRC, John H.    has said stiffer springs (I think that's what he said) would    help.  

 

  

Mike  Welch

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Tailwheel rigging

I concur with the stiff spring business. 



Sonex eliminates the springs all together for direct and positive tail wheel steering. I've never flown a Sonex but all reports I've read indicate excellent ground handling. I would imagine that they don't tolerate over controlling very well .



I may experiment with stiffer springs on my Slingshot because it could stand a bit less rodent like behavior.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

At 03:17 PM 2/12/2010, Thom Riddle wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>



 I concur with the stiff spring business. 



 Sonex eliminates the springs all together for direct and positive tail wheel steering... 	


 Not so sure that's a good idea; the springs also cushion the shocks.  Without springs, all the shocks go directly into the aircraft's tail and rudder cables... could be asking for trouble.



 Last time I flew my plane before taking it home for the winter, I landed on a rough grass field and discovered I'd lost one of the springs.  Nothing to do for it but take the other one off and fly it home that way.  Really wasn't any trouble at all, just a little harder to keep it going straight during slow taxi (I have independent brakes).



 -Dana

 

 --

  Don't put it off, procrastinate today.    [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

>Another mod I have used on all my Kolbs was shortening the tail wheel >strut considerably.  The standard configuration of the 3/4" aluminum rod is >extremely flexible in bending and twist.

 >john hauck

 >MKIII

 >Woodville, Florida - Raining, windy, cold and grey....

  

  

 John, Kolb guys,

  

    I have already shortened the aluminum rod.  I think I cut off about 4", or something close to that.  The remaining rod is much stiffer now.

   I didn't even think about a possible chromoly rod.  I'll leave that option open, in the event it looks like  I need to make a change.  I expect that most of my landings would be asphalt or grass, so I don't know if I'd need to change it.

  

   Thanks for the pointers.   

  

 Mike Welch

  

  



 		 	   		  Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.   [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Tailwheel rigging

Dana,



I'm not suggesting to anyone that they eliminate tail wheel springs completely on their cable actuated rudder/tailwheel. 



I am not absolutely certain but believe that Sonex uses control rods for rudder and tailwheel as well as aileron and elevator. I don't think they use cables for any of the control surfaces or steering mechanizm, both tricycle and tailwheel. I know they use a Titanium rod for tailwheel stinger and gear legs. It is not a Kolb but a good airplane that owners rave about.... sort of like Kolbs in that respect .

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Tailwheel rigging

13feb10



Question for Jack Hart (Master of all things FireFly...) on his tail wheel modification...



When one of my tail wheel springs gave up I found myself nose down in the tall grass, facing the wrong direction. 



Now that I'm rebuilding my FireFly, I resolved to change to your clever bicycle spoke design... I gathered together the parts and as I started to assemble it I realized that the trailing ends of the spokes extend a bit lower than the original chain and spring set-up.



My question is... Does the bicycle spoke set-up work well in the grass and rough fields? The spokes are exposed and I wonder if they'll grab the grass and get bent by flying stones??? As part of my polyester prevention program, my FireFly never sees the ramp, or any other pavement. Rough describes the fields I use...



I am attracted to John H's shortened tail wheel post modification. I'll measure for that today.



Ad via, yesterday I passed my PP check ride... Kinda shakes my confidence in the system to realize theyâ€™ll let an ageing, "we don't need no stinking badges", FireFly jockey handle the big iron...



Sorry to see all the posts about snow blowers and freezing rain... We've had a rough winter too... See...



"COASTAL HAZARD MESSAGE

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE HONOLULU HI

336 AM HST SAT FEB 13 2010



...HIGH SURF ADVISORY FOR NORTH AND WEST FACING SHORES OF NIIHAU

KAUAI OAHU AND MOLOKAI...NORTH FACING SHORES OF MAUI...AND WEST

FACING SHORES OF THE BIG ISLAND..."



Monster surf, 80 degrees, balmy trade winds...



Aloha

_________________
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

Do Not Archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

We hate to see you suffering Henry.  That sweaty 80F must be tough.



If you want go the easy way on compression springs go to a hardware store (Ace, Lowes?)and buy two packages 

of screen door compression sets.  That's what I have on my MkIII.  They should work well on a lighter airplane.

I added reinforcement to the little hook ends with safety wire to keep them from slipping out of place.

A hard bounce can undo nearly anything man can build.

BB



On 13, Feb 2010, at 11:03 AM, henry.voris wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 13feb10

 

 Question for Jack Hart (Master of all things FireFly...) on his tail wheel modification...

 

 When one of my tail wheel springs gave up I found myself nose down in the tall grass, facing the wrong direction. 

 

 Now that I'm rebuilding my FireFly, I resolved to change to your clever bicycle spoke design... I gathered together the parts and as I started to assemble it I realized that the trailing ends of the spokes extend a bit lower than the original chain and spring set-up.

 

 My question is... Does the bicycle spoke set-up work well in the grass and rough fields? The spokes are exposed and I wonder if they'll grab the grass and get bent by flying stones??? As part of my polyester prevention program, my FireFly never sees the ramp, or any other pavement. Rough describes the fields I use...

 

 I am attracted to John H's shortened tail wheel post modification. I'll measure for that today.

 

 Ad via, yesterday I passed my PP check ride... Kinda shakes my confidence in the system to realize theyâ€™ll let an ageing, "we don't need no stinking badges", FireFly jockey handle the big iron...

 

 Sorry to see all the posts about snow blowers and freezing rain... We've had a rough winter too... See...

 

 "COASTAL HAZARD MESSAGE

 NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE HONOLULU HI

 336 AM HST SAT FEB 13 2010

 

 ...HIGH SURF ADVISORY FOR NORTH AND WEST FACING SHORES OF NIIHAU

 KAUAI OAHU AND MOLOKAI...NORTH FACING SHORES OF MAUI...AND WEST

 FACING SHORES OF THE BIG ISLAND..."

 

 Monster surf, 80 degrees, balmy trade winds...

 

 Aloha

 

 --------

 Henry

 Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

 

 Do Not Archive

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=286273#286273

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject: Tailwheel rigging

At 08:03 AM 2/13/10 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



13feb10



Question for Jack Hart (Master of all things FireFly...) on his tail wheel modification...



...............................
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

My question is... Does the bicycle spoke set-up work well in the grass and 
	


rough fields? The spokes are exposed and I wonder if they'll grab the grass 

and get bent by flying stones??? As part of my polyester prevention program, 

my FireFly never sees the ramp, or any other pavement. Rough describes the 

fields I use...

.................................

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Henry,



I really believe it is less susceptible to damage than the original setup.  

There is less mechanism for things to catch on.



I have flown it in and out of grass fields and made one landing in a bean 

field and nothing has ever caught on it.  



My sympathies in that you reside in the only state in the union that has no 

snow fall.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Tailwheel rigging

13feb10



Jack,



Thanks for the reassurance... I will continue with your design.



Sometime back I went looking for compression springs, but found none locally. Maui is sortta the end of the hardware supply food chain... It was easier to follow your parts numbers and order from McMasters than locate springs here.



Ya, I read a headline stating the Hawaii was the only state spared snow... Geographically challenged... Both Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa are snow capped all winter.



Aloha,

_________________
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

Do Not Archive

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