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In flight Adjustable Trim
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: In Flight Adjustable Trim

Ellery- GM electric window regulators are used in a lot of equipment, but I don't know about the relative weight.

  

                                          Bill Sullivan

                                          Windsor Locks, Ct

                                          FS 447

                                          38 degrees, sunny

 [quote][b]

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:44 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim

That actuator has 2" of travel and normally moves at 1/2" per second at full load. It's rated for 150 lbs of force while moving, 300 lbs. holding. It can be slowed down to about 10 seconds for full travel if needed. I have a off the shelf 3 position driver that will be set for the same 3 positions you could get with the stock handle. I may build or buy a infinite adjustable driver in the future but i wanted to start with the 3 known flap positions.  



 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  You mean like this?



http://www.ill-eagleaviation.com/electric_flap_drive.htm

 Scott



Scott/Gang:



How fast is the actuator through full travel?



The MKIII doesn't like to climb with full or half flaps.  Climbs much better 

clean.



I like the almost instantaneous capability of going from full flaps in 

landing configuration to climbing out clean in a go around situation.



Infinite adjustment of flap angle might be fun to play with in the air.



Global warming is ruining my flying.  My airplane needs to be washed when 

the ice in the bucket and the hose thaws.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

That actuator has 2" of travel  --------

Scott



Scott/Gang:



Is there a provision for the actuator to return to the zero degree position 

(flaps clean) should the system malfunction?



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:30 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

Scott/Gang:



Is there a provision for the actuator to return to the zero degree position 

(flaps clean) should the system malfunction?



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




FWIW, if it's like mine and it looks like it is, it's stuck where it is if the actuator fails or otherwise goes offline. For that reason, I don't dump full flaps until I have the landing spot made or otherwise don't go into a configuration that I can't recover from if it's likely I'd have to (training from the C150 days).



Wish I had manual flaps too. Tho if I go Kolb again my model won't have em....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:35 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim

 	  icrashrc wrote: 	
		  That actuator has 2" of travel and normally moves at 1/2" per second at full load. It's rated for 150 lbs of force while moving, 300 lbs. holding. It can be slowed down to about 10 seconds for full travel if needed. I have a off the shelf 3 position driver that will be set for the same 3 positions you could get with the stock handle. I may build or buy a infinite adjustable driver in the future but i wanted to start with the 3 known flap positions.  

	




BTW, that is just darn cool. My compliments to your engineering, looks very well done.... 



Do not archive



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

John



Instead of mounting the actuator fixed on the root tube,   mount it on a

slide,  reverse the direction  of the flap handle movement.  So if the

actuator gets stuck,  you can pull the flap handle to go to a clean config.



Or kiss



Boyd

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	




Scott/Gang:



Is there a provision for the actuator to return to the zero degree position 

(flaps clean) should the system malfunction?



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

Personally I like the feeling of feedback pressure when I pull down on the flap handle.  It's also

good to be able to release it smoothly at your discretion during climbout.



At first there was a little groping for the handle, located above my right shoulder, but soon the location

became automatic.  Fortunately I don't have any joint pain in that action.



It feels the same as the way I slow my old driveway snowplow (no brakes), lower the blade.

BB



On 19, Feb 2010, at 11:22 AM, b young wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 John

 

 Instead of mounting the actuator fixed on the root tube,   mount it on a

 slide,  reverse the direction  of the flap handle movement.  So if the

 actuator gets stuck,  you can pull the flap handle to go to a clean config.

 

 Or kiss

 

 Boyd

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

 

 Scott/Gang:

 

 Is there a provision for the actuator to return to the zero degree position 

 (flaps clean) should the system malfunction?

 

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

Instead of mounting the actuator fixed on the root tube,   mount it on a

slide,  reverse the direction  of the flap handle movement.  So if the

actuator gets stuck,  you can pull the flap handle to go to a clean config.



Or kiss



Boyd

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	




Boyd Y/Gang:



The MKIII standard flap actuation system works well for me in my airplane, 

primarily because I fly right seat, stick in right hand, left hand on 

throttle or flap handle when necessary.



It is a little more difficult to pull flaps when flying left seat in a 

single center mounted stick MKIII because I have to twist to the right to 

hold the control stick, then pull the flap handle.



The electric actuator would be a plus for pilots that have difficulty 

pulling the handle because of age and/or lack of physical ability to pull 

it.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

It feels the same as the way I slow my old driveway snowplow (no brakes), 

lower the blade.

BB



I had forgotten about the air brake action of the flaps on the MKIII.



When I first started flying the MKIII the amount of drag induced by flap 

deployment was readily noticeable.  Seemed like it would throw me into the 

harness.



Now, I am not aware of that deceleration, but I know it is still there. 

Really helps me to lose altitude without gaining excessive airspeed when I 

need it.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

It is a little more difficult to pull flaps when flying left seat in a 

single center mounted stick MKIII because I have to twist to the right to 

hold the control stick, then pull the flap handle.

john hauck

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


that is part of the reason I installed an inverted L  on the center stick,

it can be reached very easily with the left hand,  for flying,(give my right

arm a rest), making adjustments to throttle flaps etc.  I am sure it is not

as convenient as dual controls, but it was much easier and quicker to build.



Boyd Young

 MKIII

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:59 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

I am sure it is not

as convenient as dual controls, but it was much easier and quicker to build.



Boyd Young

Boyd Y/Gang:



If Brother Jim had not designed and built my dual controls (the first for a 

MKIII) in 1991, I'd being flying with a single center mounted stick.  I 

transitioned into the Factory MKIII with a center mounted single stick.



I'd also be flying left seat, instead of right.



john hauck

titus, alabama

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

John

Interesting thread about the use of Kolb flaps. Do you normally  

deploy flaps going into your strip? Full flaps?

Russ K

do not archive



On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:50 AM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

  It feels the same as the way I slow my old driveway snowplow (no  

 brakes),

 lower the blade.

 BB



 I had forgotten about the air brake action of the flaps on the MKIII.



 When I first started flying the MKIII the amount of drag induced by  

 flap

 deployment was readily noticeable.  Seemed like it would throw me  

 into the

 harness.



 Now, I am not aware of that deceleration, but I know it is still  

 there.

 Really helps me to lose altitude without gaining excessive airspeed  

 when I

 need it.



 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

Do you normally

deploy flaps going into your strip? Full flaps?

Russ K

Russ K/Gang:



The only time I do not use full flaps is when the wind is mixed up and 

strong, especially a cross wind.  I am referring to winds most folks don't 

normally fly Kolbs.



To stay current in my airplane I occassionally shoot clean approaches. 

There is a considerable change in glide and also an attitude change between 

clean and full flaps in the MKIII.



Unlike some on the Kolb List, I do not have a problem with flaps and 

MKIII's.  The MKIII does not instantly quit flying with our without flaps, 

unless the pilot quits flying the aircraft.  It may not float like an 

Aeronca Champ, but the pilot should fly the MKIII according to the MKIII's 

glide characteristics.   Unless pilot input dictates, the MKIII performs 

nicely through a full flare to a three point landing.  The standard MKIII 

will usually hit tailwheel first, but the pilot can also control the 

attitude of the MKIII to prevent this maneuver from becoming exagerated. 

With the different main gear and true three point stance of my MKIII, I 

still occassionally overcompensate and hit tailwheel first.  My MKIII does 

not complain when I get overly aggressive.  Sometimes it is necessary to get 

my MKIII on the ground now to get the brakes working.



People who do not and will not use full flaps on the MKIII have never 

learned to fly the airplane.  They have mastered only part of this fine 

little airplane's capabilities.



Not that difficult to set the MKIII landing up, clean or full flaps, to land 

to a point you pick on the ground, just like shooting an approach in a 

helicopter.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

joepilot503

Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 13
Location: wyoming

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim

I installed in flight trim wheel from Rans, works great. here is a photo. Brian.

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elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

I purchased one of them a while ago and built it into my panel I wasn't happy with it , it is two slow moving & not enough travel you could never land with it if you ever had an elevator cable break unless you had a two mile runway and 800 mile aproach , so I built a new panel and am working on another set up 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:43 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

anyone need a trim wheel setup  like Brian's that fits a Rans I have one to get rid of  it works good but not to my satisfaction  

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:50 am Post subject: Re: In flight Adjustable Trim

 	  elleryweld(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  I purchased one of them a while ago and built it into my panel I wasn't happy with it , it is two slow moving & not enough travel you could never land with it if you ever had an elevator cable break unless you had a two mile runway and 800 mile aproach , so I built a new panel and am working on another set up 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   -- 	




Speaking of that, what are the elevator stick forces like in the Mark III? I remember on my FS II the controls were so light I'd just hold the stick to keep a desired trim. Even on an xcountry I hardly even noticed it lol.



But seriously yeah I did occasionally want a trim system anyway as my FS II wanted to fly around 70mph hands-off which was a little hotter than I liked for the engine....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: In flight Adjustable Trim

Speaking of that, what are the elevator stick forces like in the Mark III? 

I remember on my FS II the controls were so light I'd just hold the stick to 

keep a desired trim. Even on an xcountry I hardly even noticed it lol.



But seriously yeah I did occasionally want a trim system anyway as my FS II 

wanted to fly around 70mph hands-off which was a little hotter than I liked 

for the engine....



LS



Folks:



Stick forces in a MKIII depend on a lot of variables:



-Airspeed.



-Load.



-One or two up.



When the MKIII is trimmed correctly, the fore and aft control stick forces 

are light, as with all the other Kolb models.  To increase sensitivity, 

reliability, and make elevator control input more precise, I installed 1/8" 

up elevator control cable when I built my mkIII in 1991.  At the time, I did 

not realize how much the 3/32" stretched when flying, especially with a 

passenger.  Many years later, while flying the initial tests on the newest 

Kolb MKIIIx, I discovered up elevator control cable stretch once again.  We 

changed up to an 1/8" elevator cable and the problem with excessive up 

elevator control stick travel went away.  There is a lot of load on the up 

elevator cable with pilot only, which goes up quite a bit more when we add a 

passenger.



Untrimmed stick forces qickly become quite evident during cross country 

flight.  One's hand and arm will tell you, plus difficulty maintaining a 

constant heading and/or altitude.  Local flying, one normally will not pick 

up on slight untrimmed stick forces.



If one is flying "a little hotter than I liked for the engine..." I'd reduce 

power.



Any kind of cross country with untrimmed stick pressure would be very 

difficult, uncomfortable, and unenjoyable.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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