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447 fuel pressure sensor

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bob.kravis(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

The new FF has a GRT 2002 EIS with altitude sensor.  Hal said it is sweet.  I looked at Grand Rapids website and saw that they offer a fuel pressure sensor.  As I have read in the postings, many of the engine outs are due to fuel starvation.  There is a testimonial on their website (see Flying Impressions) about an RV owner who turned back when he got a low fuel pressure warning after takeoff.  That got me thinking about adding one.  What does the group think about that idea? Bob

  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: Re: 447 fuel pressure sensor

 	  bob.kravis(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  The new FF has a GRT 2002 EIS with altitude sensor. ï¿½Hal said it is sweet. ï¿½I looked at Grand Rapids website and saw that they offer a fuel pressure sensor. ï¿½As I have read in the postings, many of the engine outs are due to fuel starvation. ï¿½There is a testimonial on their website (see Flying Impressions) about an RV owner who turned back when he got a low fuel pressure warning after takeoff. ï¿½That got me thinking about adding one. ï¿½What does the group think about that idea? Bob

	




Most of those cautions are probably just warnings against running out of gas.... 



Besides that, the #1 cause bar none other of fuel starvation events on the Rotax 2-strokes that use the pneumatic fuel pumps, tho, is too long of a pulse line. This is so treacherous because the mistake is so easy and non-intuitive to make. I.e. mounting the fuel pump a long ways from the engine looks pretty but leads to this problem.  The line has to be a foot or less in length to properly drive the pump and preferably as short as possible.



No idea on the fuel pressure sensor as I've never used one. But the EIS you'll love (I had one on my 503-equipped FS II)....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

Besides that, the #1 cause bar none other of fuel starvation events on the 

Rotax 2-strokes that use the pneumatic fuel pumps, tho, is too long of a 

pulse line. This is so treacherous because the mistake is so easy and 

non-intuitive to make. I.e. mounting the fuel pump a long ways from the 

engine looks pretty but leads to this problem.  The line has to be a foot or 

less in length to properly drive the pump and preferably as short as 

possible.



LS



Folks:



We don't have a problem with excessive length of Mikuni fuel pump pulse 

lines on Kolb aircraft unless the builder makes drastic changes in 

recommended fuel pump location during engine installation.  Normally, there 

is no reason to change locations.  Most Kolb builders try to build as 

cheaply as possibly.  Short fuel and pulse lines appeals to those of us that 

have built Kolbs.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: Re: 447 fuel pressure sensor

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

We don't have a problem with excessive length of Mikuni fuel pump pulse 

lines on Kolb aircraft unless the builder makes drastic changes in 

recommended fuel pump location during engine installation.  Normally, there 

is no reason to change locations.  Most Kolb builders try to build as 

cheaply as possibly.  Short fuel and pulse lines appeals to those of us that 

have built Kolbs.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




Regardless, if the OP needs to know what that length limitation is on the pulse line, i.e. how to recognize an installation where this mistake _has_ been made, it's about a foot maximum. 

You can verify this with any Rotax dealer or mechanic, or anyone who's familiar with 2-stroke installations using the pneumatic pump.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

Regardless, if the OP needs to know what that length limitation is on the 

pulse line, i.e. how to recognize an installation where this mistake _has_ 

been made, it's about a foot maximum.

You can verify this with any Rotax dealer or mechanic, or anyone who's 

familiar with 2-stroke installations using the pneumatic pump.



LS

Lucien/Folks:



I don't need to verify the specs.  I read the book and have been building 

and flying Kolbs for 26 years.



Most of us builders get by with much less pulse tubing than one foot.



I like to rely on the operators manual for that particular engine and the 

other publications that are readily available on line from Rotax for free. 

In the beginning, we had only the operators manual that came with the 

engine.  Information from Rotax was nil.  Most of what we learned we learned 

from failures and by mistakes.  I met Gerry Olenik in 1986.  He was a 

tremendous source of info for me and two stroke Rotax engines back then and 

now.  Homer, in 1987, would not sell me a 447 with my FS kit because he felt 

the engine was too much for the FS.  The 447 was the engine that powered the 

Twinstar two place.  I got my engine from Homer, called Gerry and horse 

traded for a new 447.  Times change.  Three years later Homer agreed to buy 

me a 503 to power my FS for a true circumnavigation of the Continental US. 

The year, 1990, that I had planned the flight was the year I pulled the 

wings off my FS powered with the 447.  Glad I never had a chance to fly the 

original FS with a 503.  Although Homer changed his mind about max power on 

the FS for me, I think he got that one wrong.  However, his decision to give 

me the 503 was an individual decision for me and not intended for the 

remaining original FS fleet.



Flown in the normal category, a 503 powered original FS would have lasted as 

long as a 377 powered FS.  I would never have flown it like a little old 

lady.  With that extra power, I would have enjoyed every one of those Rotax 

ponies.



john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

brett(at)xtc-paragliding.
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:14 am Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

Hi



I'm new to this list but I see it is fairly active.



I'm a Kolb Twinstar III Classic owner. UK registered, but based in 

Slovenia most of the time. (G-MYIK)



I'm looking to source two replacement fuel tanks. I currently have the 

20 litre tanks fitted, but want to increase the size to 25 litre tanks 

(sorry to quote European standards, but if I quoted gallons we'd get all 

confused between US and Imperial gallons). Does anyone know a stockist? 

Preferably in Europe, but in the States otherwise and I can get them 

shipped over. Dimensions are 250mm x 250mm for width and depth.



I've tried the UK importer but several emails and a couple of 

conversations have resulted in no help. They don't seem to be very good 

with backup. The manufacturer has also not replied to past emails. Doh. 

Shame really because the aircraft it great. It's just support that seems 

to be lacking whenever I need it!



Regards

Brett

www.xTc-Paragliding.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: Re: 447 fuel pressure sensor

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



Lucien/Folks:



I don't need to verify the specs.  I read the book and have been building 

and flying Kolbs for 26 years.



Most of us builders get by with much less pulse tubing than one foot.



	




Actually, it sounds like you probably do need to verify this specification. I'm talking about _maximum_ pulse line lengths, not minimum. The shorter the better on the pulse line indeed, but obeying the _max_ length is a critical safety issue. Not everyone who's built a Kolb followed the directions and being able to recognize an improper installation is crucial for safety.



Putting it another way, it doesn't matter, ultimately, if the manufacturer directed this or that particular installation of the fuel pump. The critical issue is whether the builder _actually did_ follow those directions and obeyed the pulse line length limitations or not. 



An owner-op needs to know what that limitation is in order to be prepared for that contingency.



To verify, I'd suggest Ronnie Smith and/or Mark Smith (at Tri-State Kite sales) as the two best sources in the field for this information. They'll tell you about a foot, maybe a foot and a half (and I can personally vouch for the length limit myself).



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

> Most of us builders get by with much less pulse tubing than one  foot.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 


	




Actually, it sounds like you probably do need  to verify this specification. I'm talking about _maximum_ pulse line lengths,  not minimum. The shorter the better on the pulse line indeed, but obeying the  _max_ length is a critical safety issue. Not everyone who's built a Kolb  followed the directions and being able recognize an improper installation is  crucial for safety.



Putting it another way, it doesn't matter,  ultimately, if the manufacturer directed this or that particular installation of  the fuel pump. The critical issue is whether the builder _actually did_ follow  those directions and obeyed the pulse line length limitations or not. 



An  owner-op needs to know what that limitation is in order to be prepared for that  contingency.



To verify, I'd suggest Ronnie Smith and/or Mark Smith (at  Tri-State Kite sales) as the two best sources in the field for this information  (and I can personally vouch for the length limit  myself).



LS



--------

LS

Titan II SS



WTF are you talking about? I have read the above at least twice  and don't understand the argument, or the reason for one. To the best of my  recollection every instruction I have ever seen say to keep the pulse line under  one foot. I have never heard anyone recommend putting your pulse pump any where  but as close to the engine as possible. "The shorter the better on the pulse line indeed, but obeying the  _max_ length is a critical safety issue. " ?????????????????  I like to have the last word as much as  anyone, but it means much more if it is actually  correct.

  

 Still cranky!

 Larry

   [quote][b]

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Lucien/Folks:



 I don't need to verify the specs.  I read the book and have been building

 and flying Kolbs for 26 years.



 Most of us builders get by with much less pulse tubing than one foot.


	


Actually, it sounds like you probably do need to verify this specification. 

I'm talking about _maximum_ pulse line lengths, not minimum. The shorter the 

better on the pulse line indeed, but obeying the _max_ length is a critical 

safety issue. Not everyone who's built a Kolb followed the directions and 

being able recognize an improper installation is crucial for safety.



To verify, I'd suggest Ronnie Smith and/or Mark Smith (at Tri-State Kite 

sales) as the two best sources in the field for this information (and I can 

personally vouch for the length limit myself).



LS

Lucien/Gang:



I thought I explained that in this sentence:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Most of us builders get by with much less pulse tubing than one foot.


	


To me, that means we use less than the maximum recommended of 12" or 1'.



Must have missed something somewhere.



I repeat.  I do not doubt your word about the maximum length of the Mikuni 

fuel pump pulse line of 12".



Nor do I need to verify with Ronnie Smith, who is a close friend, or Mark 

Smith who I do not know.



I am no disputing the length of the pulse line.



Sorry about that.



Decided to take a look at the Rotax Two Stroke Installation Manual before I 

fired this response back to the Kolb List.



Sure enough, on page 15-1, it states the maxium length of the pulse line is 

20".  I made a mistake.  Pays to look in the book, even though I have always 

cut my pulse lines much shorter than 20".

john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: Re: 447 fuel pressure sensor

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

Decided to take a look at the Rotax Two Stroke Installation Manual before I 

fired this response back to the Kolb List.



Sure enough, on page 15-1, it states the maxium length of the pulse line is 

20".  I made a mistake.  Pays to look in the book, even though I have always 

cut my pulse lines much shorter than 20".

john hauck

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




There you go, so much for "I don't need to verify the spec" right? That's what it says in my inst. manual as well.....



Shorter than that isn't a mistake, BTW, and actually stlll improves the actuation of the pump.



FWIW, back in TX I knew a fellow who had a 447 in a Starlight. the recommended location of the fuel pump was on the firewall behind the engine, resulting in a pulse line length of more than 2'. I don't think he ever had a safe flight in the plane the whole time he flew it and had engine bogging virtually every time he went up.



The Kolb recommended installation for the FS II I had was well within this specification. I never had trouble with mine as a result.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

At 05:14 PM 2/20/2010, Bob Kravis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The new FF has a GRT 2002 EIS with altitude sensor.  Hal said it is sweet.  I looked at Grand Rapids website and saw that they offer a fuel pressure sensor.  As I have read in the postings, many of the engine outs are due to fuel starvation.  There is a testimonial on their website (see Flying Impressions) about an RV owner who turned back when he got a low fuel pressure warning after takeoff.  That got me thinking about adding one.  What does the group think about that idea? 	


 I have a simple mechanical pressure gauge on my plane.  Never had a problem with the pump, but it's nice to glance at it from time to time and see that it's in the normal range (3-5 psi).  It's also a check on the float needle; if the pressure holds for awhile after shutting down the engine your needle/seat are still good.



 -Dana

 --

  Always keep clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.    [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

At 10:23 AM 2/21/2010, John Hauck wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>



 

  Besides that, the #1 cause bar none other of fuel starvation events on the 

 Rotax 2-strokes that use the pneumatic fuel pumps, tho, is too long of a 

 pulse line... 	


 I always assumed the #1 cause of fuel starvation events was too much air in the fuel tank... 



 -Dana

 

 --

  Always keep clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.    [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

Dana:

  

 Please give credit to the individual that wrote the  post.

  

 I did not write it, and don't want to be associated with  it.

  

 Sounds like something Lucien would generate.

  

" Besides that, the #1  cause bar none other of fuel starvation events on the 

Rotax 2-strokes that  use the pneumatic fuel pumps, tho, is too long of a 

pulse  line..."

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

  

  

 [quote]

I    always assumed the #1 cause of fuel starvation events was too much air in the    fuel tank... 



-Dana

 [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: 447 fuel pressure sensor

At 08:22 PM 2/21/2010, John Hauck wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dana:

  

 Please give credit to the individual that wrote the post.

  

 I did not write it, and don't want to be associated with it.

  

 Sounds like something Lucien would generate.

  

 " Besides that, the #1 cause bar none other of fuel starvation events..." 	


 Sorry, my mistake.  It was indeed Lucien's statement; I clicked "reply" to the wrong message.  In your message it wasn't automatically marked as quoted text, so I misread it.



 -Dana

 

 --

  If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.    [quote][b]

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