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Raptors Rule
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cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Saw the F-22 hover, kick turn 180 in 2-3 seconds, fly sideways, and then dart away in burner. Vipers are obsolete hood ornaments, Eagles are runway kill, Hornets become windscreen splatter. Only the new Sukhoi could be a threat, if it's targeting system improves.

  

 But then there are the new combat UAV's. Some kid who grew up skipping homework for video games is going to eat your lunch.

  

  

 Craig Payne

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Craig,

 You are correct on all 3. Su, F-22, and UCAVS are going to be the next bad boys on the block. Don't short the Block 30 & 50 Vipers, nor the Super Hornet, and lastly the Mud Hen. They are still strong performers and air doctrine is being rethought on the basis of all of the above. All being driven by economics. Unless we solve our energy problems and stop our economic hemorrhaging across the pond, we are going to have trouble funding the new weapon systems. But I diverge to other social ills that do not need to discussed here. 

 Happy Easter, 

 Doc

 



  

 [quote] ---

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

The new Suk will only be a threat to the US and Brits if US and/or Brit pilots are flying them.  Russia does not have the resourses to fly and train the way we do and are therefore not effective with their technology.  



Ask Jj or Hitman how much they would like to get their hands on a little Mig 29/look down shoot down capability!  Sweet stuff in the hands of competent fliers, not so much in under trained ones.



Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		       

Saw the F-22 hover, kick turn 180 in 2-3 seconds, fly sideways, and then dart away in burner. Vipers are obsolete hood ornaments, Eagles are runway kill, Hornets become windscreen splatter. Only the new Sukhoi could be a  threat, if it's targeting system improves.

  

 But then there are the new combat UAV's. Some kid who grew up skipping homework for video games is going to eat your lunch.

  

  

 Craig Payne

  

  

 

	




 		Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Yup.  Take a look at how many guard/reserve units are going UAV’s.  Days of the manned fighter are numbered.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne

 Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 6:20 AM

 To: yak-list

 Subject: Raptors Rule  

  

     

Saw the F-22 hover, kick turn 180 in 2-3 seconds, fly sideways, and then dart away in burner. Vipers are obsolete hood ornaments, Eagles are runway kill, Hornets become windscreen splatter. Only the new Sukhoi could be a threat, if it's targeting system improves.  

    

   

    

But then there are the new combat UAV's. Some kid who grew up skipping homework for video games is going to eat your lunch.  

    

   

    

   

    

Craig Payne

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

That's why we need to keep our YAKs operational. So there are a few of us fossiles left that remember the art of manned flight.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Just think about how the Air Force recruiting effort is  going to go!  "Go Air Force where you fly and fight right from a leather  recliner and go home to your family every night!"

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just think about how the Air Force recruiting effort is going to go!  

 "Go Air Force where you fly and fight right from a leather recliner and 

 go home to your family every night!"


	


Well, not quite. Just ask any local "gamer" (you know, the kid next door 

who has a $5000 super-fast computer upon which he plays 

internet-connected games for 10 hours per day) and he will tell you that 

low-latency is life (forget the "speed" thing). The UCAV operators are 

going to be as close as they can get to keep latency well below human 

reaction time. You can't even do that across the US.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

sasiry(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

The F-22 is a great air superiority fighter, but who is it going to fight?

 UAV's are good for recon, eyes on target, and Predator strikes.

 But from a Marines perspective, where does close air support enter the planning.

 JDAM's are great, but a grunt needs it up close and personal.

 Remember close air support doesn't mean dropping ordnance from 8,000 feet and above.

 You can't call it CAS at those altitudes.

 Thanks God for Harriers, F-18's, A-10's, Cobras, and Apaches.



 

 On 4/16/06, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com (dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote: [quote]  Just think about how the Air Force recruiting effort is going to go!  "Go Air Force where you fly and fight right from a leather recliner and go home to your family every night!"

  Dennis

  

 [quote] ---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Yes for the "gamer" latency is life.  Take it from someone who has flown

Airwarrior, Warbirds, Ace's High, etc.  Trying to fly form off someone

who has dropped packets, it sucks.  There are enough birds in geo and

non geo orbit to support the control information for a few squadrons of

UAVs.  The big thing will be putting a few more up for the <meter video

that the planes would "see."

However, I can say it doesn't require the controller to be in the same

theater as the global hawk.  I'm guessing that they are already

controlling the UAVs from sat links rather than direct RF.  Since you

are already bouncing the signal off a geo sat, adding a second geo sat

by direct sight would not add much more latency.   If the birds support

that today, image what happens in version 10 of the bird.  Remember, we

are already well past version 3.

The folks could be sitting on the carrier or sitting in the base at DG

to support the UAVs.  But you can bet that in the future recon missions,

SpecOps missions, and bombing missions, the controller will be sitting

in the basement at the pentagon or down at the base in FL  .  Of

course at this time, the big problem will be where to but all of the

tractor trailers since each larger UAV comes with 2 rather big trailers

each.  They could all share the same dish's for uplinks, though.

The real time control and video/SA required for ACM will require the

folks to be closer.  Maybe in theater, but I bet we get it to geo sat

based control, which means they could be anywhere.  As long as they are

not using direct RF, they could be anywhere.

DaBear

I know nothing about this, but I'm just guessing.

Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

> Just think about how the Air Force recruiting effort is going to go! 

> "Go Air Force where you fly and fight right from a leather recliner

> and go home to your family every night!"

 Well, not quite. Just ask any local "gamer" (you know, the kid next

 door who has a $5000 super-fast computer upon which he plays

 internet-connected games for 10 hours per day) and he will tell you

 that low-latency is life (forget the "speed" thing). The UCAV

 operators are going to be as close as they can get to keep latency

 well below human reaction time. You can't even do that across the US.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Currently happening! Seems in the 60's we were going to fight all of our battles with missles. So out came the gun!

 Damned here we go again.

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Cross into the Blue baby!  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 5:37 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Raptors Rule  

  

     

Just think about how the Air Force recruiting effort is going to go!  "Go Air Force where you fly and fight right from a leather recliner and go home to your family every night!"  

    

Dennis  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

The tide has changed amongst the youngsters in the Air Force.  Not more than 6-8 months ago there was one dude for ten UAV slots…..nobody wanted them.  Now there are 10 dudes for one slot.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp

 Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 8:37 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Raptors Rule  

  

       

Currently happening! Seems in the 60's we were going to fight all of our battles with missles. So out came the gun!  

    

Damned here we go again.  

    

Doc  

    

   

  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Raptors Rule

Actually, the Predators are launched in Iraq by local controllers but the mission is flown by someone at Nellis AFB. So yeah, you could be flying a combat mission in your underwear if you wanted. It has already begun. 



I am not sure who is doing the flying on CIA armed missions and where they are flying from.

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

Tim Gagnon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Actually, the Predators are launched in Iraq by local controllers but the mission is flown by someone at Nellis AFB. So yeah, you could be flying a combat mission in your underwear if you wanted. It has already begun. 


	


Sure you are going to be able to fly a preprogrammed mission that way. 

You aren't going to fly ACM that way. When someone tries to do 

air-to-air with a UCAV, you can bet your ass they are going to have to 

solve the latency problem.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

In a message dated 4/16/2006 3:52:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  brian-yak(at)lloyd.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  A.    Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just think about how the Air Force recruiting    effort is going to go!  

 "Go Air Force where you fly and fight    right from a leather recliner and 

 go home to your family every    night!"


	


Well, not quite. Just ask any local "gamer" (you know, the kid    next door 

who has a $5000 super-fast computer upon which he plays    

internet-connected games for 10 hours per day) and he will tell you    that

low-latency is life (forget the "speed" thing). The UCAV operators are    

going to be as close as they can get to keep latency well below human    

reaction time. You can't even do that across the  US.

	


 

 Dennis you much more correct than Brian, One of my neighbors a LC  at Nellis fly's armed combat missions over the middle east on  a regular basis from his chair on base ( I do not think it is  leather) and is home every night.

   

 Tom Elliott  

CJ-6 NX63727

Sandy Valley  NV

3L2

702-723-1223

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: Raptors Rule

N13472(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis you much more correct than Brian, 


	


Actually, no, Dennis is not more correct than Brian.



Recon and delivering ordinance to the ground can be preprogrammed. 

Getting the UAV to exactly the right point is easy. A good autopilot 

with GPS will put whatever you have where you want it to go. You can fly 

that mission from the moon if you like. The man is just there to make 

the long-term mission decisions, not the split-second responses.



Likewise, flying against a stupid foe, i.e. one that doesn't react, is 

not going to take rocket science on the part of your air-to-air UCAV.



But if you ever hope to do *real* air-to-air with a fluid foe you need 

instantaneous adaptability. A 1/2 second delayed reaction will prevent 

that from happening. No, air-to-air UCAVs will not be driven by guys 

sitting in an armchair 10,000 nm away through a GEOsat link ... unless 

they want to lose.



So you have two choices:



1. If you really want to do air-to-air from 10,000 nm away you have to 

make the flight systems smart enough to initiate during an aerial 

encounter and then let the human element catch up.



2. Alternatively you can reduce latency by getting your pilots close 

enough that speed-of-light doesn't interfere with performance.



Please show me how you can do it any other way.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:53 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Brian, with no disrespect intended, you've moved way off the subject of my 

lighthearted post about the Air Force recruiting effort.   All I was saying 

was how different it is and will be recruiting "fighter" pilots.  I really 

could care less about being more or less right on the subject.

Dennis



---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 So you have two choices:



 1. If you really want to do air-to-air from 10,000 nm away you have to 

 make the flight systems smart enough to initiate during an aerial 

 encounter and then let the human element catch up.



 2. Alternatively you can reduce latency by getting your pilots close 

 enough that speed-of-light doesn't interfere with performance.



 Please show me how you can do it any other way.



Brian,
	


All things will be known in time.

Drop this line/topic.

Doc

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Brian, with no disrespect intended, you've moved way off the subject of 

 my lighthearted post about the Air Force recruiting effort.   All I was 

 saying was how different it is and will be recruiting "fighter" pilots.  

 I really could care less about being more or less right on the subject.


	


And I didn't care if you were more or less right either. I cared that I 

was told I was wrong when I wasn't.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: Raptors Rule

Roger Kemp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian,

 All things will be known in time.

 Drop this line/topic.


	


Yes sir!



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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