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Electric Trim Problems

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John Price

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:59 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Any help on this one would be gratefully received.



Classic  Monowheel G-SHSH now flying for over 6 years.



We have now an intermittent fault on the electric trim.

The controller is by a 'coolie hat' on the stick driving a Ray Allen servo.

The trim will always work nose up but has an intermittent fault when used to trim nose down.

We have replaced the switch and the servo but still the problem remains.



Any thoughts ?



John Price.

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:05 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi! John.

Yes I can tell you all about it and most who fly with me can also!

I had this problem initially a number of years ago and the Ray Allen people

assured me it must be a wiring failure, the hassle proving all the circuitry

needs to be done to be believed. Still the failure was intermittently

present. Next I had to remove the servo (fortunately I had built in a

facility which locked the servo locating bolt heads enabling the nuts to be

removed from the rear...in anticipation of needing it out!) I returned it to

Ray Allen Company where they failed to reproduce the symptoms. In my case

the failure was identical to yours and I found much to my horror that if I

let go of the control stick and trimmed fully nose up (scary because you

wouldn't land it like that and the forces on the stabilators and rear

controls are phenomenal)it then will be possible to reverse the trim motor.

They returned the servo after checking and for good measure included a

replacement MK1 relay for 50% of the normal price.

I refitted the servo and also replaced the relay. The problem had been

cured.

Some considerable time ensued before the identical problem returned.

I have reported this to the Ray Allen and they said they had now identified

that the MK1 Relay actually fails but in one direction only so when the

system is reversed it hides the fault.

They have now (again at 50% cost) have sent a MK2 relay saying that they

have at last identified the original fault. The MK2 is slightly different in

shape and size and sitting on my desk awaiting fitting.

Pleased to be of service to you with this news...(as usual I am out in front

where trouble is concerned !)

However I now am most concerned that you aren't preceding me with the MK2

which is failed? If you would advise me that I'd be obliged.

My system has a panel  trim switch and a control stick top trim switch too.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG Rotax 914.



--

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

John,



In the  wires from the servo in the tail going forward you should have a 

splice or connector. Have you checked that?



Kevin

---

gavanne(at)iconz.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi Bob and John



This is very coincidental, I am just in the process of fitting a new RS2

rocker switch on the panel because of a sticking trim. As you say it sticks

when trimming down and I have to reverse the direction to rectify the

situation. I had a spare rocker switch from some time ago when I had a trim

runaway and bought a new switch but it never recurred so didn't fit it.

I also run the system with a stick top grip through a RayAllen relay deck,

probably the mark one which I have had for some time

What you are saying is that the Relay is the problem.

I'll email RayAllen and see what they say



Thanks

Gavin Lee....... ZK-EPA  #355



--

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

We have been having problems with sticking trim, both directions, but

only from the rocker switch in the  instrument panel.  The trim buttons

on our pilot's stick never seem to have that problem.  Since both sets

of switches are connected to the same circuit at the relay deck, It

seems that it would have to be a bad switch, not the relay deck.  Only

if sticking were from both switch positions would I expect it to be a

relay deck problem.

Any comments would be appreciated, since I am just about to replace the

panel mounted rocker switch.



Terry Seaver

A135

--

gavanne(at)iconz.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

I do have the same problem from the stick mounted switch as well, as I

mentioned I am changing the rocker switch because I had a spare and also as

the start of a process of elimination, just had a response from Ray

Allen.....



Hello,



Sorry to hear of your trim system problems. When a servo trims one way and

not the other, I would suspect a relay problem.



Our REL-2 have much more durable relays inside. It's a little bit larger,

but has the same functionality and wire colors. 



You can download our order form and FAX/email it to us. Aircraft Spruce has

our REL-2 available also.



Best regards,



Scott Menziimer



Doesn't say anything about a half price relay but I will probably order one

anyway



Gavin Lee.....#355



--

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi All,



I had this problem and I ended up replacing the Ray Allen stuff with one of Matt Drallel's trim controllers. Matt's unit can also be set to slow down the servo speed.



Paul

  [quote][b]

gholland(at)content-strea
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

I chose the same Unit as Paul, the Matt Dralle Speed Governor for my Europa.

 It can be found at: http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm and at $67 is excellent value.

 If positioned correctly is easy too get to and adjust during the initial flights of Europa to get a smoother TRIM transition rather than the high speed operation that seems the normal.

 Regards

 Gerry 

 

 Gerry Holland

 07808 402404

 [url=gholland(at)content-stream.co.uk]gholland(at)content-stream.co.uk[/url]

 

 Based at White Ox Mead, Near Bath, UK

 

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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:56 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi! Terry.

The relay sticks in the up mode and will not reverse until full travel

position then reverses and hides the fault Which ever switch you use.. Take

Scott Menzemer's advice and get a MK2 relay.



Bob Harrison G-PTAG 



--

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi Guys,



I note that these relay decks cost $46.00 and they are even more to buy

outside the USA.  I have roll and pitch trim servos operating the trim

through a home made relay deck.  I recently modified the relay deck to

facilitate the auto-trim feature of my altitude hold.  I have never had any

problems at all ( touch wood).  The basic pitch trim only requires 2 relays

and 2 diodes and a bit of veroboard (all available from Maplins) - total

cost about £5.00.  Making a relay deck really is a simple task - takes about

an hour.



Regards,



Mike

 	  Quote: 	
		  You can download our order form and FAX/email it to us. Aircraft Spruce has

our REL-2 available also.



Best regards,



Scott Menziimer



Doesn't say anything about a half price relay but I will probably order one

anyway

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:46 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

I would second that,  Its never been a problem so far 

Ivor

---- Gerry Holland <gholland(at)content-stream.co.uk> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I chose the same Unit as Paul, the Matt Dralle Speed Governor for my Europa.

 It can be found at: http://www.matronics.com/governor/index.htm and at $67

 is excellent value.

 If positioned correctly is easy too get to and adjust during the initial

 flights of Europa to get a smoother TRIM transition rather than the high

 speed operation that seems the normal.

 Regards

 Gerry 

 

 Gerry Holland

 07808 402404

 gholland(at)content-stream.co.uk

 

 Based at White Ox Mead, Near Bath, UK

John Price

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Electric Trim Problems

Thanks Chaps,



Having given this some thought I think that we will replace the relay for a new Mk 2 Ray Allen unit. This Saturdays job!

We don't think that the wiring is the fault because the DC motor would exhibit the problem when driving in either direction.



As we didn't build the aeroplane any suggestions where we might find the thing? I suspect behind the panel close to the isolator switch might be a good starting point. Last help, Is taking the panel off easy, or a sod of a job ?



John.

gholland(at)content-strea
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

John Hi!

Been following and commenting on your TRIM problem and now commiserate with

you having to battle with an unknown Panel.

As a Builder and until recently an operator of a Europa XS can I suggest

some ideas.



Firstly...can you contact the Builder or are there any documents with the

Aircraft.

If it¹s a Œreal¹ Relay you might hear it click so create a quiet atmosphere

and get your ear to the panel.

If you have to go into the Panel make the first expedition based around

removing single items such as Instruments or Radio.

If the ultimate is required....the bloody thing needing to come out then

remove Control sticks and bias towards rear of cabin. Cover the ŒTunnel¹ to

avoid damage and remove any vertical levers or switches in that area too.

If you are lucky it will be secured by nuts on the Firewall side. BTW it

will be heavy so watch your back, fingers etc. Could be 25lbs. It¹s not

impossible to cut small sub panels with Modellers Jigsaw to gain access and

repair or make good afterwards.

Best of luck! It will all work out if you take your time, and move Panel out

slowly with someone watching down through Front Windshield to feedback what

they can see being stretched!

Regards

Gerry



Gerry Holland

07808 402404

gholland(at)content-stream.co.uk

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi! John, 

There wasn't a recognized way to fix the panel, You will probably have to

locate all the connection plugs as you pull the panel forward. Disconnect

the battery though ...first operation.

I built mine as fixed and put two access panels from the engine side of the

firewall, but it's still a pig of a job.

I would think it will be located some where close by the Flap relay as a

pair.(Be sure to get the right one !

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

 	  Quote: 	
		  As we didn't build the aeroplane any suggestions where we might find the

thing? I suspect behind the panel close to the isolator switch might be a
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  good starting point. Last help, Is taking the panel off easy, or a sod of a

job ?
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

John.


	


John,



Take care before ripping into the instrument panel.  If the installation has

a single rocker switch for the pitch trim, it is quite possible that there

is not a relay deck fitted.  A relay deck is not required in the basic

system.  It depends on the rating of the switch contacts, the contacts of

the supplied rocker switch were up to the task.



If your 'coolie hat' stick top is a Ray Allen one, in the basic

configuration, it does not require a relay deck.



If you can contact the original builder, tips on panel removal would be very

useful.  I know of some installations that were not designed to be

removable.



Regards,



Mike.

gavanne(at)iconz.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:35 pm Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Hi John



If you have a stick top switch and a rocker switch there will be a relay

deck in the system

Both switches will be connected into the relay and 2 wires will run from the

relay to the servo. The relay is probably fairly close behind your rocker

switch

Ray Allen has an excellent wiring diagram on their web site for this exact

situation.



Good Luck

Gavin Lee....#355



--

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: Electric Trim Problems

Though handy, a relay is not necessary in a two switch situation.  My 

bird is rigged with grip top buttons at P-1 and a rocker at P-2.  The 

difference is that I have them tied into a diverter switch.  Switch is 

in one position when P-1 is in control and in the other position when 

P-2 has the A/C.  Switch is just above the rocker switch, so P-2 has no 

trouble switching the system.  A lot cheaper than the relay, and less 

troublesome...



Jeff - Baby Blue



On 3/2/2010 9:56 PM, Gavin & Anne wrote:

[quote] 



 Hi John



 If you have a stick top switch and a rocker switch there will be a relay

 deck in the system

 Both switches will be connected into the relay and 2 wires will run from the

 relay to the servo. The relay is probably fairly close behind your rocker

 switch

 Ray Allen has an excellent wiring diagram on their web site for this exact

 situation.



 Good Luck

 Gavin Lee....#355



 --

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