|
Matronics Email Lists Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
We need a new subject to kick around.
As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up upright.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Depends ,,,,,,,,, what broke the cable ?. : )
Jim Kmet
912 MK-3C
Cookeville, TN
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Jim
Good point. Lets assume something like corrosion. Are there other things that could fail? Seems like John H uses something like a 5/16 cable. I saw one MKIIIC built with no kidding a 1/4 inch cable (defiantly not recommended). A weld could fail some where. Let me perfectly clear I think a plans built plane that is maintained isn't going to have a problem.
Just wondered if flying inverted could save the day if a up elevator cable broke.
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Rick/Gang:
I use 1/8" up elevator cable, and have since I built my mkIII in 1991.
Two years ago I discovered the 3/32 cable stretched considerably, reducing up elevator travel when flying two up in the newest MKIIIx. We changed to 1/8" cable and eliminated the problem. Did not compute difference in weight of the larger cable, but would think it would be negligible and well worth the weight penalty.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote] Seems like John H uses something like a 5/16 cable. Rick
[b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
>As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up >upright.
>Rick Neilsen
>Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
Rick,
Good idea about a topic change. Regarding losing an up-elevator cable, you would NOT need to try to fly inverted. For me, I'd think that's a guaranteed way to die.
When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe. You can control the up elevator with trim. You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control. All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.
For aileron loss, we'd open a door. For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder). You will turn left!! For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way. You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!
Back when I was able to fly quite frequently, I used to practice these types manuevers. They're kind of fun. At least you'd know what to do if you ever needed to.
I also liked to practice slight turns, right at the verge of stall. I'd set my plane up to fly about as slow as it could, stall horn blaring, and then do lots of left and right turns. My forward speed was practically nothing, when viewed from the ground, I'd bet!
Practicing for all sorts of emergency situations is just plain smart. The pilot that survives the best will likely be the one who practiced for the least expected event. IMO
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with ect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. [quote][b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
by0ung(at)brigham.net Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted?
Larry Born had an idea where he ran the elevator trim cable all the way back and attached on the elevator horn. That way if the elevator cable broke,,, pull the elevator trim to max and use forward pressure on the stick for neutral and down elevator. This way the trim cable holds the normal flight loads. And the elevator cable only the movement loads, where it is much less likely to break or even stretch.
Boyd Young
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
At 05:04 PM 3/2/2010, b young wrote:
Quote: | Larry Born had an idea where he ran the elevator trim cable all the way back and attached on the elevator horn. That way if the elevator cable broke,,, pull the elevator trim to max... |
I set the fixed trim tabs (bent aluminum) for a reasonably slow speed, around 40mph, figuring an otherwise controlled landing at that speed would be survivable. Then I use a bungee to the elevator bellcrank for down trim to offset that for normal flight.
-Dana
--
+REAL+ programmers use EDLIN to create Windows apps [quote][b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006 Posts: 205 Location: Sandy, Oregon
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
On final into a box canyon airstrip, I lost a rudder cable. With a tailwheel E-LSA - not a good thing! I was able to land without damage, but it made me decide to start practicing emergency maneuvers.
I have a mechanical trim tab (on the elevator) on my Drifter, and I found I was able to land using only the trim tab and throttle - no elevator input. I also practiced landing without a rudder - and, easiest of all, landing without aileron. I still practice these maneuvers each flying season, as well as true dead stick landings. It makes me feel much more confident that even if I miss something in my pre-flight, I'll probably be able to land.
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: |
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Emergency Procedures
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 12:41 PM
>As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up >upright.
>Rick Neilsen
>Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
Rick,
Good idea about a topic change. Regarding losing an up-elevator cable, you would NOT need to try to fly inverted. For me, I'd think that's a guaranteed way to die.
When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe. You can control the up elevator with trim. You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control. All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.
For aileron loss, we'd open a door. For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder). You will turn left!! For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way. You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!
Back when I was able to fly quite frequently, I used to practice these types manuevers. They're kind of fun. At least you'd know what to do if you ever needed to.
I also liked to practice slight turns, right at the verge of stall. I'd set my plane up to fly about as slow as it could, stall horn blaring, and then do lots of left and right turns. My forward speed was practically nothing, when viewed from the ground, I'd bet!
Practicing for all sorts of emergency situations is just plain smart. The pilot that survives the best will likely be the one who practiced for the least expected event. IMO
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with ect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. Quote: | http://www======================
|
|
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Mike W/Gang:
What works for a 172 doesn't necessarily work for a Kolb.
After you get your mkIII flying, give your 172 emergency procedures a try, then let us know how they worked out for you and your Kolb.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote]
When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe. You can control the up elevator with trim. You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control. All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.
For aileron loss, we'd open a door. For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder). You will turn left!! For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way. You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!
Mike Welch
[b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
Back to top |
|
|
slyck(at)frontiernet.net Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Mike, since the stock MkIII trim is only a spring load on the cable, I doubt it would help much.As for going inverted, that sure doesn't sound appealing.
BB
On 2, Mar 2010, at 3:41 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
Quote: | >As I was drifting off to sleep last night got wondering if a up elevator cable broke in flight could the day >be saved by flying inverted? Consider a landing where you would drag an engine in the dirt and end up >upright.
Quote: | Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
|
Rick,
Good idea about a topic change. Regarding losing an up-elevator cable, you would NOT need to try to fly inverted. For me, I'd think that's a guaranteed way to die.
When I was learning how to fly for my private pilot license, my instructor Loren (a girl), used to make me practice things such as you describe. You can control the up elevator with trim. You should have seen us spinning the trim wheel to get control. All you'd need to do in a Kolb is set the trim to a slight decending postion, and control altitude with engine speed.
For aileron loss, we'd open a door. For a left turn, push the left door way out into the wind (with left rudder). You will turn left!! For a right turn, you do the right door (and rudder) the same way. You won't spin on a dime, but you darn sure have "some" control!
Back when I was able to fly quite frequently, I used to practice these types manuevers. They're kind of fun. At least you'd know what to do if you ever needed to.
I also liked to practice slight turns, right at the verge of stall. I'd set my plane up to fly about as slow as it could, stall horn blaring, and then do lots of left and right turns. My forward speed was practically nothing, when viewed from the ground, I'd bet!
Practicing for all sorts of emergency situations is just plain smart. The pilot that survives the best will likely be the one who practiced for the least expected event. IMO
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with ect/01/' target='_new'>Get it now. Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Boyd/Gang:
That wasn't an original idea. Kolb used redundant cables, then decided it was overkill and eliminated them.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Larry Born had an idea where he ran the elevator trim cable all the way back and attached on the elevator horn. That way if the elevator cable broke,,, pull the elevator trim to max and use forward pressure on the stick for neutral and down elevator. This way the trim cable holds the normal flight loads. And the elevator cable only the movement loads, where it is much less likely to break or even stretch.
[quote]
Boyd Young
[b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 338 Location: Western PA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
John,
Are you refering to the continuous cable that goes from the stick, to the up elevator horn and back forward to the elevator trim lever? If so, how does Kolb do it now?
Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009 Posts: 1392 Location: Udall, KS, USA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
About 15 years ago Kolb added a tab for the trim connection to the side of the elevator bell crank. The problem with running the cable all the way from front to rear is that when you use the trim, the elevator cables go slack. That was how my airplane was rigged when I bought it, I added the tab and the problem went away.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:24 AM, Denny Rowe <rowedenny(at)windstream.net (rowedenny(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
[quote] John,
Are you refering to the continuous cable that goes from the stick, to the up elevator horn and back forward to the elevator trim lever? If so, how does Kolb do it now?
Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Rick G/Gang:
Standard factory Kolb MKIII's never used redundant up elevator cables.
The forward elevator bell crank located at the forward end of the tailboom has not changed since serial number M3-001.
If Rick's MKIII had a redundant cable that ran to the elevator control mechanism at the aft end of the tailboom, it was a mod done by the builder.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote]
About 15 years ago Kolb added a tab for the trim connection to the side of the elevator bell crank. The problem with running the cable all the way from front to rear is that when you use the trim, the elevator cables go slack. That was how my airplane was rigged when I bought it, I added the tab and the problem went away.
Rick Girard
[b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Denny R/Gang:
The two Kolb aircraft I am not very familiar with are the Twinstar and MKII. It may have been the Twinstar that had, at one time, a redundant up elevator cable that ran from the from the stick/cockpit to the elevator control mechanism at tail end of the tailboom and back to the up elevator trim lever. If Dennis Souder is reading this, he can straighten me out.
MKIII owners/pilots will find that 1/8" up elevator cable will increase control authority over the 3/32" cable that will stretch, especially when flying two up.
This is an easy, inexpensive way to improve positive control of your MKIII.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote]
John,
Are you refering to the continuous cable that goes from the stick, to the up elevator horn and back forward to the elevator trim lever? If so, how does Kolb do it now?
Denny Rowe, Mk-3, PA
[b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 338 Location: Western PA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
John,
Better check that one, my plans most surely have the continuous cable as stated in my last reply to ya. No mention in there of connecting the trim to the front bell crank.
Denny
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 338 Location: Western PA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
John,
My Mk-3 kit was produced in 91 but I did not buy it from the original owner until the late 90s and only finished it in 2003. Per the plans I rigged the continuous cable on the elevator and trim. 3/32"
I'll keep an eye on the feel of the cable but so far so good, my planes pretty light, (470 pounds) and only 70 hp and still has low hours. I have had passengers up to 270 pounds along and had plenty of elevator, even touching down at idle.
I was not aware they ever changed the elevator rigging. Or maybe I forgot hearing about it.
Later,
Denny
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 338 Location: Western PA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Rick,
I have not noticed any slack in the elevator in flight, I hope I remember to check this if our two feet of snow ever melts before November!
Denny
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: Emergency Procedures |
|
|
Could be suffering from CRS.
Wouldn't be the first time.
I'll look at my plans and instruction book and see what I can find. Been a long time since I have been in them.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
[quote] Better check that one, my plans most surely have the continuous cable as stated in my last reply to ya. No mention in there of connecting the trim to the front bell crank.
Denny
[b]
| - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|