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Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

It used to be the start of a tune-up on older automobiles to warm up the engine and spray water or a light oil like ATF into the carb.  I have tried the water, and the steam will blow all the carbon loose.  It's done at a high idle, and then you make a couple of high RPM runs and watch the flaming carbon go out the tailpipe.  I almost set a corn field on fire doing this- big chunks of carbon throwing sparks.  It also gets carbon all over the plugs, which then have to be cleaned/changed.  I do not know if a Rotax will put up with this.  Supposedly the oils also work (including Marvel Mystery Oil), but I haven't tried them.  Newer cars have a catalytic converter, and any oil could ruin the converter.

  

                                               Bill Sullivan

                                               Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                               FS 447

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aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:22 am Post subject: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

Outboard motors { two  stroke ones } recommend  decarboning this way. They of course sell there own stuff in a spray can.  

 I have used this and had good results without any  spark plug problems. I would of course change plugs after a bit of ground  running in the Kolb .I am braver on the water than in the air .My biggest  concern would be what was going into the exhaust system and would it stay there  and maybe cause a partial blockage  

 Downunder

 MK111c

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Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

I would not use this method for the following reasons. As your post lists a 447 I will assume we are talking 2 strokes though some points apply to four strokes. The use of oil rather than water would eliminate the danger of some of the following but the risk of hydro lock would remain. Head removal on a two stroke is so easy I would not risk any short cuts.



1   Auto engines have more cylinders and much larger intake/plenum area to distribute the liquid. You would be risking hydro lock and a bent rod.



 2  Thermal stresses, any volume of liquid will draw away alot of heat fast.



 3  In a two stroke whatever liquid you use must first enter the crankcase , not a good place for water.



 4  If you are steaming carbon off of the piston and head then you are also steaming oil off of the cylinder.



 5  This is probably of least concern but you have no control over where all those bits of carbon go. Remember that as the piston moves up the bore rising gas pressure forces the rings out to seal against the cylinder. Driving bits of carbon between the piston and rings could stick a ring.



   The first shop I worked in was a Kawasaki Sno Jet dealership. One of my co workers ( an otherwise good mechanic but must of been totally brain dead that day) tried to kick over an H2 that was hydro locked and bent a rod like a pretzel. Imagine what would happen with all the inertia of the prop and gear box fed back into the crank in a hydro lock situation.

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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

The first shop I worked in was a Kawasaki Sno Jet dealership. One of my co workers ( an otherwise good mechanic but must of been totally brain dead that day) tried to kick over an H2 that was hydro locked and bent a rod like a pretzel. Imagine what would happen with all the inertia of the prop and gear box fed back into the crank in a hydro lock situation.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


Kolb group:  

   

Seems I remember reading spraying in a mist while the engine was running at a fast idle.    A mist should not create a hydro lock.  

   

Or did I miss something?  

   

   

Then if you run the engine up to temps before shutdown,  any residual  moisture will be driven out.  

   

An old mechanic friend told me that he would be hesitant to introduce any cold water mist into a warm / hot engine,  he said to wrap a copper line around an exhaust stack then meter the liquid into the copper line, this would  pre heat it or turn it to steam before dumping it into the carb.   

   

Boyd Young MkIII   

   

Do not archive  

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Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

No one including myself has all the answers re guarding issues on this list. In the end these are all opinions. In the case of engines I do however believe that I have more experience than average to base my opinions on. 

Some background - I am 53 and have worked as a mechanic most of my life. I worked for many years as a motorcycle snowmobile mechanic. I have tuned , repaired, rebuilt and modified 2 and 4 strokes. Including porting, piston mods. single cylinder crank rebuilding and such. I now employed as a fleet mechanic working on everything from 4 cyl. cars to bucket trucks, back hoes and cranes. 8 ASE certs. I have also raced mx, road raced motorcycles and currently compete in time attack with my car, all of which requires endless maintenance. I can not begin to estimate how many 2 stroke motors I have opened up, how many modes of failure I have seen nor how many cases of corrosion damage.

   It can be surprisingly difficult to drive moisture from an engine. the entire engine not just the cylinder and head need to exceed the boiling point and remain at that level for some time to drive moisture out. On a two stroke cool mixture constantly enteres the crankcase cooling it. If you have ever monitored the temp. of the cases during warm up or on a cool day this is very noticable. The crank bearings are exposed to anything the engine injests. If you introduce water mist into the air fuel mix on a 2 stroke it will go to and thru the main and rod bearings. Also the intake side piston skirt will be directly contacted and scrubed by the water. Again,  you would be steaming the lube off the upper cylinder walls .

  We are all free to maintain our engines at the level we are comfortable with. We all weigh the cost and complexity of maintenance before  we decide what approach to use.  My self I will never pour or spray anything into an engine that care about in an effort to shortcut carbon removal, nor can I recall any manufacturer or tech. rep endorsing this procedure. Now if my daily driver, an older car with little value, starts to ping due to excess carbon buildup I might consider a shortcut of this type.

  We fly with these engines, parts are expensive, 2 stroke carbon removal is fairly simple, I will do it the right way.

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

Not sure, but I believe major manufacturers dropped the water spray decarboning sometime in the early 1950's.  I have heard that the procedure was in the "T" and "A" Ford maintenance manuals.  Like you, I wouldn't use the procedure unless it was on a clunker.  Because of the reasons given, I wouldn't use it on a Rotax.  The carbon has to go somewhere, and may cause other problems.  ATF may not encourage rust, but the hot carbon may also end up putting holes in the Stits.

  

                                                 Bill Sullivan

                                                 Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                 FS 447

                                                 48 degrees and nice out

  

                                          

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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Using ATF Transmission Fluid for Decarboning

Theoretically, water of other elixirs could be introduced into the 

exhaust port...and not do damage to bearings or rings...Herb

At 10:29 AM 3/4/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Not sure, but I believe major manufacturers dropped the water 

 spray decarboning sometime in the early 1950's.  I have heard that 

 the procedure was in the "T" and "A" Ford maintenance 

 manuals.  Like you, I wouldn't use the procedure unless it was on a 

 clunker.  Because of the reasons given, I wouldn't use it on a 

 Rotax.  The carbon has to go somewhere, and may cause other 

 problems.  ATF may not encourage rust, but the hot carbon may also 

 end up putting holes in the Stits.



                                                 Bill Sullivan

                                                 Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                 FS 447

                                                 48 degrees and nice out

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