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Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
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MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

Most states don't have to disclose alcohol content in auto fuel unless it is 

above 10%.  The average consumer didn't know whether they could use E-10 or 

not so they avoided buying it.  Get a tester from EAA.  They've gone up to 

$18.00, but are probably worth it if you're going to burn MOGAS. 

http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/test_kit.asp



Mark Davis

N44YK



---

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

I disagree with the 100 LL observation . I am sure you are correct about the hoses made in the USA . Did you test the  all of the Chinese and Russian rubber parts that are available for the CJ and theYAK ?

 The LL in 100 LL is used for lubrication in the older engines that do not have hardened valve stems and seats. The STC's for mogas are for use in these modern engines or engines with this modification . 

 The suppliers of  100 LL have not found a suitable replacement for the lead that is not harmful , and is cost effective. 

 I could be wrong.

 Terry 



 

   From: "vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com" <vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 9:55:44 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas



  Gentlemen,



If you will take some time to research the web concerning running ethanol in aircraft you might find out the same thing we did.  That almost 100% of aircraft hoses made in the last 15 years are alcohol proof.  Our long term testing on CJ rubber produced zero effects.  Thats a year soaking in it by the way.  There are many university studies and many US aircraft flying on it. even P&W 985's in AG service.  I believe its a lot easier and safer to research the smartest people in the USA doing the research and try and understand their findings instead of just a bunch of opinions on the List.  Mine included.  You probably know as well as I do that 100LL has been just a way to fleece the aviation world for years now, or why would the FAA issue STC's for using mogas in many US aircraft for so many years?  



But in the final analysis  eariler we have been running mogas with and without E10 for years now in three CJs and one Yak 18T, not one single problem ever.  But as I said do some research for yourself.



TGB



 



 

 



 



 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

MMO is 2 chloro-benzene.

Doc

--

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

doc,



I'm just wondering/curious about the significance of that post just stating the chemical makeup of mmo.



I have a chemistry degree and it still means nothing to me!



As was mentioned before in a post "I like the smell"



K

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

Keith,

 

 I do use MMO in the fuel, one quart to 100 gallons as that is what my truck fueler holds.  I have not used any stabilizer as my AC does not sit that long,  But I would use it if it sat for much more than a month.  But of course always keeping it topped off.  

 

 I can't imagine that MMO can hurt anything in the fuel and it seems to work for us too but in the oil its another story.  And I will relate my findings here.  I once called a Phillips oil engineer to inquire  about the use of MMO in the oil, being its an old wives tale kind of thing.  (I use Phillips 25/60XC year round).  I won't belabor but in a nutshell he said this "Do you think a gigantic oil company like Phillips would develop a modern new aviation oil and then leave something out?"  In other words never put it in our oil. 

 

 Guess who makes MMO now?  Turtle Wax!  I think I will go with the Phillips recommendation!

 

 TGB

 

 

 

  

   

 

   

 

  --

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

Good stuff Bundini!



Thanks for sharing all that info.



Keith

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

Terry There may be a solution to the fuel problem. I've been following this company for the last year and a halve seems to me if our government doesnt stop them it could work. 

Bill Wade   Swift Renewable Fuels Welcome to the next generation of aviation fuels. 

According to an EPA press release, "Lead has been blended with gasoline, primarily to boost octane levels, since the early 1920s. EPA began working to reduce lead emissions soon after its inception, issuing the first reduction standards in 1973, which called for a gradual phasedown of lead to one tenth of a gram per gallon by 1986. The average lead content in gasoline in 1973 was 2-3 grams per gallon or about 200,000 tons of lead a year. In 1975, passenger cars and light trucks were manufactured with a more elaborate emission control system which included a catalytic converter that required lead-free fuel. In 1995 leaded fuel accounted for only 0.6 percent of total gasoline sales and less than 2,000 tons of lead per year. Effective January 1, 1996, the Clean Air Act banned the sale of the small amount of leaded fuel that was still available in some parts of the country for use in on-road vehicles. EPA said fuel containing lead may continue to be sold  for off-road uses, including aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and marine engines."  

Reference: EPA press release 

Swift has this solution. 

Unlike the current process of refining crude oil to arrive at a final fuel, we synthetically create hydrocarbons from bio-mass. This creation method is superior to the existing refining method because we maintain control over the entire process giving us the flexibility to meet or exceed current ASTM specifications.  



The advantages of SwiftFuel are:    

Seamless replacement of 100LL (no engine modifications)  
 

15% increase in range over 100LL (no oxygenates)  
 

20% drop in pollutants over the current 100LL fuel  
 

15% more volumetric energy than 100LL  
 

No need for stabilizers or additives
 



 

   From: T A LEWIS <talew(at)bellsouth.net>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 10:41:40 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas



  I disagree with the 100 LL observation . I am sure you are correct about the hoses made in the USA . Did you test the  all of the Chinese and Russian rubber parts that are available for the CJ and theYAK ?

 The LL in 100 LL is used for lubrication in the older engines that do not have hardened valve stems and seats. The STC's for mogas are for use in these modern engines or engines with this modification . 

 The suppliers of  100 LL have not found a suitable replacement for the lead that is not harmful , and is cost effective. 

 I could be wrong.

 Terry 



 

   From: "vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com" <vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 9:55:44 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas



 Gentlemen,



If you will take some time to research the web concerning running ethanol in aircraft you might find out the same thing we did.  That almost 100% of aircraft hoses made in the last 15 years are alcohol proof.  Our long term testing on CJ rubber produced zero effects.  Thats a year soaking in it by the way.  There are many university studies and many US aircraft flying on it. even P&W 985's in AG service.  I believe its a lot easier and safer to research the smartest people in the USA doing the research and try and understand their findings instead of just a bunch of opinions on the List.  Mine included.  You probably know as well as I do that 100LL has been just a way to fleece the aviation world for years now, or why would the FAA issue STC's for using mogas in many US aircraft for so many years?  



But in the final analysis  eariler we have been running mogas with and without E10 for years now in three CJs and one Yak 18T, not one single problem ever.  But as I said do some research for yourself.



TGB



 



 

 



 



 --

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

Just my two cents for what it's worth:



In years past, I burned a lot of mogas in my -52TW, hundreds of hours. It ran better (lower fuel flow on JPI for same cruise power setting and cleaner plugs) than on 100LL.



Then they started putting ethanol in it and never told anyone. I could tell no difference in how it ran, but my fuel gauges quit working. I found that by draining the tanks and refilling with 100LL they would then work fine. After doing this several times was when I discovered the addition of ethanol into the mogas. 



The fuel gauges are capacitance type probes and it appeared that the ethanol screwed up the probes ability to measure the quantity. I *think* these type probes are very sensitive to the slightest amount of water and that could have been introduced because of the ethanol. Anyway, they work fine on real mogas or 100LL, but not with any ethanol present.



Keith, I agree, I can tell a difference with MMO in the 100LL. Spark plugs foul up much quicker at idle on the ground without MMO.



I sure wish I could buy ethanol-free mogas here in Maryland.  Even boat marinas around here have ethanol in their gas.

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

This is an excellent thread! With oil on the rise and aircraft capable of running on lower octane fuels it is worth well worth the discussion.



My own use of Mo-gas has consisted of running ethanol free fuel from Canada (I'd do this all day long if I could easily get it) and occasionally buying 10 gallons or so of E10 from the local pump to mix with 100LL. I've always felt comfortable with the E10 especially since I never mixed more than 50-50. My concerns about running straight loads of E10 would involve the "staleness" of the fuel after a week or so and phase separation. The latter being the most worrisome to me until I read the attached letter. That said, my biggest concern running straight E10 Mo-gas would still be that issue. In an earlier post I had thrown out the possibility of adding the marine formulation of Stabil. I MAY have read this prevents phase separation but I have yet to see actual data supporting it. There are, however, other additives that do have supporting data that suggests they will prevent phase separation.



Additionally, as one poster suggested I am also concerned about the lack of lead and my valves.



My 100 or so hours a year would translate into 1200-1500 dollars give or take in saving vs 100LL. For my piece of mind I'd rather get the ethanol free fuel when I can and continue to do my occasional 5-10 gallons of E10 than go straight E-10 Mo-gas.

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talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

---

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

OK guys, I'm sure this is a stupid question but:



Here in the NE all you can buy for the past several years is mogas with <10% ethanol.  It is used EVERYDAY in TENS of MILLIONS of cars (from my neighbor's Model T to new ones), chainsaws, snowblowers, lawn mowers, tractors, my friend's antique outboard motor collection, log splitters, new outboard motors, inboard boat motors, weed eaters, model airplane engines, pressure washers, motorcycles (including a friend's Russian motorcycle), water pumps, rotor-tillers, Bob-cats, cranes, cement mixers, aircraft tugs, etc., etc., etc.



NONE of these engines are breaking with its use. There is no hew and cry that our gas engines are failing! The only known (documented) problem I've ever heard of is long term storage of it in boats with fiberglass fuel tanks (it eats the fiberglass when it phase separates).



I have a boat with two 55 gal aluminum tanks that sits all winter (six months) full of 10% ethanol mogas.  I use the new ethanol Sta-bil and have no problems at all.



So..finally my question...why is there this apparent panic about using it in a low compression M-14P?



What is so mechanically, physically, different from all these other engines??



Cheers,

 Steve Dalton

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

I got nothing here!! WITH WHAT?  An ice cream cone?  

 

 TGB

 

   

 

  

   

 

   

 

  --

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

Reposted because the original got cut off mid-sentence:



OK guys, I'm sure this is a stupid question but:



Here in the NE all you can buy for the past several years is mogas with ethanol. It is used EVERYDAY in TENS of MILLIONS of cars (from my neighbor's Model T to new ones), chainsaws, snowblowers, lawn mowers, tractors, my friend's antique outboard motor collection, log splitters, new outboard motors, inboard boat motors, weed eaters, model airplane engines, pressure washers, motorcycles (including a friend's Russian motorcycle), water pumps, rotor-tillers, Bob-cats, cranes, cement mixers, aircraft tugs, etc., etc., etc.



NONE of these engines are breaking with its use. None of their fuel systems are failing. There is no hew and cry that our millions of gas engines are failing! The only known (documented) problem I've ever heard of is long term storage of it in boats with fiberglass fuel tanks (it eats the fiberglass when it phase separates).



I have a boat with two 55 gal aluminum tanks that sits all winter (six months) full of 10% ethanol mogas. I use the new ethanol Sta-bil and have no problems at all.



So..finally my question...why is there this apparent panic about using it in a low compression M-14P?



It seems as though we have a lot of anecdotal information and opinions, but not much in the way of factual information.  This reminds of back when mogas STC's first came out and all the "experts" predicted doom and gloom, and now many airplanes have used mogas for decades with no problems.



Cheers,

Steve Dalton

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:39 am Post subject: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

This is not a stupide question. Here in France we do not have mogas

We have an unleaded 98 which is supposed to be 98octane but in reality is more close to 88

We have an unleaded 95 (85 octane) which is still available but will be mixed in a near future with 10% Ethanol

  

As all of us I have heard bad stories about the usage of Ethanol. Mainly leaks and rubber seals disintegrated. I think that the problem is that we don't know exactly how our rubber will react with Ethanol. In the case of a motorcycle or a pressure washer if it fails then I don't think we will read a line in the newspaper. Problem is that if it happens in an aeroplane....there may be more than one newspaper relating the accident..

  So after all we have read and heard I think there is a part of reality and I would not use Ethanol in my M14P.

Not that the motor cannot burn it..it can burn almost everything, but all the rubber seals might not stay intact...

  

Fly safe guys fly safe and perhaps ask Dennis, Doug, perhaps also Thermikas I've heard that they were working on some prototype....Richard if you read this................Jan any feedback???

But in my opinion it doesn't worth it to take the chance in such case....know it for sure

  

Kind regards to all of you pilots



Didier



2010/3/18 Mozam <sdalton(at)hughes.net (sdalton(at)hughes.net)>

 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mozam" <sdalton(at)hughes.net (sdalton(at)hughes.net)>

 

 Reposted because the original got cut off mid-sentence:

 

 OK guys, I'm sure this is a stupid question but:

 

 Here in the NE all you can buy for the past several years is mogas with ethanol. It is used EVERYDAY in TENS of MILLIONS of cars (from my neighbor's Model T to new ones), chainsaws, snowblowers, lawn mowers, tractors, my friend's antique outboard motor collection, log splitters, new outboard motors, inboard boat motors, weed eaters, model airplane engines, pressure washers, motorcycles (including a friend's Russian motorcycle), water pumps, rotor-tillers, Bob-cats, cranes, cement mixers, aircraft tugs, etc., etc., etc.

   

 NONE of these engines are breaking with its use. None of their fuel systems are failing. There is no hew and cry that our millions of gas engines are failing! The only known (documented) problem I've ever heard of is long term storage of it in boats with fiberglass fuel tanks (it eats the fiberglass when it phase separates).

   

 I have a boat with two 55 gal aluminum tanks that sits all winter (six months) full of 10% ethanol mogas. I use the new ethanol Sta-bil and have no problems at all.

 

 So..finally my question...why is there this apparent panic about using it in a low compression M-14P?

 

 It seems as though we have a lot of anecdotal information and opinions, but not much in the way of factual information.  This reminds of back when mogas STC's first came out and all the "experts" predicted doom and gloom, and now many airplanes have used mogas for decades with no problems.

   

 Cheers,

 Steve Dalton

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=290748#290748

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Didier BLOUZARD

didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com)

0624243672

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Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas

interesting site:



http://pure-gas.org/

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