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MkIII antenna location

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Hi gang,

  

   I'm currious where those of you with aircraft radios located your antenna.  I will be using an Icom A200 panel mount radio, and I'm pondering where the best place would be to locate the antenna.

   It seems like everywhere I think of, there is a logical reason NOT to put it there!!

  

   I have an idea where I might install it, but I wanted to hear where others have put there's, first.

  

   Oh yeah.   I made one of those dipole antennas that Scott shared with us.  (actually, I made three.  I figured it isn't that much trouble to make more than one, while I was at it.)

  

   Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading, as long as you have a permanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane, I'd like to hear from you.  (even you lurkers....if your radio works good.  If your radio doesn't work well, keep lurking      )

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.  Get busy.  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Mike W/Gang:

  

 Was trying to keep this a secret, but will share it  with you and the rest of the herd.

  

 On my Firestar and my MKIII the antenna is mounted  under the nose pod with a 45 degree bend aft.

  

 Worked on the FS and continues to work on the  MKIII.

  

 The antenna is a stainless steel whip ELT  antenna.  Back when I bought these antennas they could be had for about  15.00 each.  Now they are 3 to 4 times that much.

  

 I upgraded from an A3 to an A6 ICOM, a little over  200.00, because the A6 had adjustable side tone volume.  After  installation, discovered the side tone was picking up all the cockpit noise and  transmitting it as well.  My transmissions were unreadable.  After  much frustration and experimentation, discovered if I turned the side tone  volume completely off, and used the side tone on my intercom, my transmission  problems were solved.

  

 As I get deafer I was also looking for more volume  from the radio.  The new A6 did the job.  I can hear  again.

  

 I also bought a mic muff cover from Oregon  Aero.  It is a foam muff with a snug fit naugahyde slip on cover.   There is a small hole on each side for voice and ambient sound.  Not sure  if it is working or not because I did the no side tone volume and mic muff  upgrade at the same time.  James Tripp has some also.  We plan to  experiment with them to see if they, in fact, do reduce cockpit noise being  picked up by the mic.

  

 john hauck

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

  

  

 [quote]      I'm currious where those of you    with aircraft radios located your antenna.    

Mike    Welch

MkIII

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: MkIII antenna location

At 08:35 PM 4/11/2010, Mike Welch wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

   I'm currious where those of you with aircraft radios located your antenna.  I will be using an Icom A200 panel mount radio, and I'm pondering where the best place would be to locate the antenna.

   It seems like everywhere I think of, there is a logical reason NOT to put it there!!

  

   I have an idea where I might install it, but I wanted to hear where others have put there's, first. 	


 I remoted my Icom A24's original rubber duck antenna, mounting it under the cockpit (between the UltraStar's stock fuel tanks) pointing straight down.  I can hear everybody and others report they can hear me just fine.



 Haven't figured out what I'm going to do when I move change the tank configuration and put a cargo box where the current tanks are.



 -Dana

 --

  A rolling stone .... kills worms    [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: MkIII antenna location

This seems to work ok.

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg9.htm



Richard Pike

MKIII N420p (420ldPoops)

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:46 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Mine sits in the middle of the pod pointing upwards. Its  connected to a hand held and works well. No noise . It was fitted by a RNZAF  aircraft fitter  so I have no details of its instillation.

 Regards

            Downunder

           MK111c

            503 

 [quote]   ---

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading, as long as you have a permanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane  

   

Mike  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.  

   
	


Mike    

   

   

I have a dipole made from the end of the piece of coax.   The dipole is on the inside of the nosecone,    the center part of the coax runs up the left side and across the top,  while the braid runs across the bottom.    The location was changed a few times to get the best swr with an antenna analyzer.  

   

www.brigham.net/~byoung/antenna.html     

   

Boyd Young  

   

       [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:49 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Boyd,



 



  Interesting, yet simple antenna.  I noticed you didn't mention a balun, though.  Is there a reason why you don't have one?  Is a good SWR reading sufficient information to say you don't need one?  I don't know, I'm just asking.



 



  I'm still not too pleased with my choices of where I have to locate my antenna on my MkIII.  I'm considering a) the nosecone area       b) way up high, above the wing's center section     c) mounted on the wing's leading edge    d) under rear portion of cabin surface



 



  a)  if I mount it (the dipole antenna) in the nosecone, one of the rods poke out in my view through the windscreen.  Not acceptable, IMO.  I might be able to tilt it to where the upper rod is completely contained inside the nosecone, and the lower rod would point more horizontally toward the rear, but I give up reception in this configuration.  



 



b)  up top, this might be one of the better locations, but a dipole antenna's dimensions don't seen to work well.  If I go with this location, I would be better to go with a simple mast & and groundplane.  The problem is...there may not be sufficient area to locate a proper ground- plane.  hmmmm?



 



c)  mounted on the leading edge of a wing, whiskers pointing rearward.  this would be the easiest & work the best!!!   No modification to the antenna at all.  may also look the dumbest place to put it.   since the whiskers could point rearward, they wouldn't be likely to be walked into, etc., but how dumb would it look to have an antenna on a wing?  more hmmm?



  BTW, if I did locate it here, I'd make a special rotatable mount, where the antenna could be rotated out of the way for storage.  I've got a design in mind where you remove a pin, spin the antenna out of the way, and lock it in place with the pin.  Still not my favorite spot!!!!!



 



d)  under rear fuselage area.  this may be one of the best places to locate it.  the question is whether I can fit it in properly.  I may not be able to stay with the dipole if I go here.  If I can create a decent groundplane out of 1/2" wide copper foil, and place the groundplane correctly on the inside of the center of the cabin, then I could extend the one 



antenna mast out and rearward.    I think I'll investigate this one more.



  Time to join the Matronics aeroelectrics forum and bug Bob Nuchols.  He'd know what to do.



 



Thanks for your input, guys.



 



Mike Welch



MkIII

 

From: by0ung(at)brigham.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: MkIII antenna location

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:35:57 -0600



  Although I mentioned the MkIII in the heading, as long as you have a permanent mount antenna on any Kolb airplane

 

Mike

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

 
	


Mike  

 

 

I have a dipole made from the end of the piece of coax.   The dipole is on the inside of the nosecone,    the center part of the coax runs up the left side and across the top,  while the braid runs across the bottom.    The location was changed a few times to get the best swr with an antenna analyzer.

 

www.brigham.net/~byoung/antenna.html   

 

Boyd Young

 

 		 	   		  

_________________________________________________________________

The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Boyd,

  

   Interesting, yet simple antenna.  I noticed you didn't mention a balun, though.  Is there a reason why you don't have one?  Is a good SWR reading sufficient information to say you don't need one?  I don't know, I'm just asking.

  

   I'm still not too pleased with my choices of where I have to locate my antenna on my MkIII.  I'm considering a) the nosecone area       b) way up high, above the wing's center section     c) mounted on the wing's leading edge    d) under rear portion of cabin surface   

   



 Mike Welch

 MkIII  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


Mike  

   

No I did not mention a balun,   (Balanced to un balanced antenna adapter)  every piece of wire will have a resonant frequency.  And if you can cut the wire to make it resonant at the frequency you want,  keep the band width wide or narrow enough for the desired application,  make it reject unwanted signals or noise.   You have done a good job.  The process  of antenna building can be as much of an art as it is a science.   Go to your browser and type in  fractal antenna  if you check out several of the links you will see many different designs,  they all work well.   You could probably design one that would be 6 inches or less in any dimension,  and place it in the front of your nose cone.  You could start with a piece of circuit board, strip all the conductor off one side,  then start masking the other side into one of the designs you could find links for.  You may have to try several in order to find one that tunes to the proper frequency, and has the band width  and swr you need.  The links I followed showed the  50 ohm coax connected at the center with  no balun.   One note,  if you painted the nosecone with polly fiber silver paint,  put the antenna on the outside.  Instead of a full surface ground plane, the braid on my coax antenna is the ground plane.   You can use the metal structure of the plane as the ground plane, and only use a wire whip.  If I were to use an outside antenna on the kolb it would be a whip antenna mounted on the rear part of the nosecone in the center pointed down for about 6 to 8 inches then bent back on about a 45 to 60 deg angle.  You  could mount it further back but would have to come up with something for support.  Someone mentioned a rubber duck mounted on the bottom…   should work fine.    If the antenna whip parallels  too close to a metal structure you will get too much radiation resistance, and not be able to tune the antenna for best swr.  The other antenna location would be on top of the gap seal.  Making sure the antenna was not too close to the engine and could not get tangled in the prop.  I am just thinking out loud here.   You could probably take an antenna like mine and hot glue it to a piece of cardboard in one of the designs you fine in one of the links.    In the early days the designers would put up as loooong a wire as they could fit in the property.  Thinking that if they were to put electrons in the air,,,   the more surface area in the air the better,     and later discovered a resonant wire, different length for different frequencies,  worked much better.  And this works for the transmitter as well as the receiver.  

   

All you wanted to know and then some.  

   

Boyd Young  

mkIII  

ham radio  N7WFM  

   

   

       [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Mike, Boyd, all, Another great source of strictly antenna information is Bob Weir, who writes a regular monthly column in "Kitplanes". He publishes a manual for building dipoles for aircraft. It comes with a roll of copper foil and a bag of baluns.  



Rick Girard



On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:42 AM, b young <by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net)> wrote:

[quote]              

Boyd,

  

   Interesting, yet simple antenna.  I noticed you didn't mention a balun, though.  Is there a reason why you don't have one?  Is a good SWR reading sufficient information to say you don't need one?  I don't know, I'm just asking.

  

   I'm still not too pleased with my choices of where I have to locate my antenna on my MkIII.  I'm considering a) the nosecone area       b) way up high, above the wing's center section     c) mounted on the wing's leading edge    d) under rear portion of cabin surface   

   

 Mike Welch

 MkIII  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


Mike  

   

No I did not mention a balun,   (Balanced to un balanced antenna adapter)  every piece of wire will have a resonant frequency.  And if you can cut the wire to make it resonant at the frequency you want,  keep the band width wide or narrow enough for the desired application,  make it reject unwanted signals or noise.   You have done a good job.  The process  of antenna building can be as much of an art as it is a science.   Go to your browser and type in  fractal antenna  if you check out several of the links you will see many different designs,  they all work well.   You could probably design one that would be 6 inches or less in any dimension,  and place it in the front of your nose cone.  You could start with a piece of circuit board, strip all the conductor off one side,  then start masking the other side into one of the designs you could find links for.  You may have to try several in order to find one that tunes to the proper frequency, and has the band width  and swr you need.  The links I followed showed the  50 ohm coax connected at the center with  no balun.   One note,  if you painted the nosecone with polly fiber silver paint,  put the antenna on the outside.  Instead of a full surface ground plane, the braid on my coax antenna is the ground plane.   You can use the metal structure of the plane as the ground plane, and only use a wire whip.  If I were to use an outside antenna on the kolb it would be a whip antenna mounted on the rear part of the nosecone in the center pointed down for about 6 to 8 inches then bent back on about a 45 to 60 deg angle.  You  could mount it further back but would have to come up with something for support.  Someone mentioned a rubber duck mounted on the bottom…   should work fine.    If the antenna whip parallels  too close to a metal structure you will get too much radiation resistance, and not be able to tune the antenna for best swr.  The other antenna location would be on top of the gap seal.  Making sure the antenna was not too close to the engine and could not get tangled in the prop.  I am just thinking out loud here.   You could probably take an antenna like mine and hot glue it to a piece of cardboard in one of the designs you fine in one of the links.    In the early days the designers would put up as loooong a wire as they could fit in the property.  Thinking that if they were to put electrons in the air,,,   the more surface area in the air the better,     and later discovered a resonant wire, different length for different frequencies,  worked much better.  And this works for the transmitter as well as the receiver.  

   

All you wanted to know and then some.  

   

Boyd Young  

mkIII  

ham radio  N7WFM  

   

   

        	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Boyd and Larry,

  

   Thanks for the detailed responses.  All this information is helping me come to a final decision where to locate it.

  

   As I said before, I'm leaning toward the fuselage, underneath and rearward (below the front of the boomtube).  This seems to be pretty close to where Richard Pike located his, and confirmed by Larry that it worked pretty good.

  

   Presently, my plan is to build a dipole antenna, and make the groundplane out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips, in the shape of an "X".  The BNC bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X, where the 1/8" steel rod mast is fastened.

  

   My final design seems to be a combination of a couple of other typical aircraft radio antenna designs.  (mast of the dipole Scott showed us, groundplane of common base station type design, etc.)  Unless new and better info comes along, this is what I'll likely go with.

  

   Locating the antenna at the top edge of the windscreen may not be a good location for me.  I had planned on putting my Garmin 296 antenna there, and I understand there may be RF interference problems having two different antenna types near each other.  Belly mount antenna seems to be the best candidate, so far.

  

   Putting a dipole out on the wing's leading edge would be the easiest, and would probably work the best, but it would also look the dumbest, IMO. 

  

   Thanks again to you guys that have responded to my request.  You've been very helpful, and am helping me get this figured out.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII   

 		 	   		  The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.  Get busy.  [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Presently, my plan is to build a dipole antenna, and make the groundplane out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips, in the shape of an "X".  The BNC bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X, where the 1/8" steel rod mast is fastened.  

   

Mike  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


Mike what you are describing is a quarter wave antenna with an X shaped ground plane.    A di pole ( di meaning two)   is a radiating element with one  ground element usually mounted in a straight line, and in our case as vertical as possible.   

   

_________________ co _________________    

   

    where co is the coax feed point.  

       [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Boyd,

  

   Yup, you're right.  I got too loose with my labels.  I meant quarterwave.

  

   On the aeroelectric list, a guy suggested checking out Bob Weir's (from Kitplanes fame)website.  I am very familiar with Bob Weir's designs, and in fact, I built of the copper foil antennas already, back in 2001.  I built it with the intention of using it on my MkIII, but then recently sort of changed my mind.  Now, I'm back to using it.  It seems like it will be the best one for me, after all. 

  

   Thanks to everyone for their help.

  

 Mike Welch

 

  From: by0ung(at)brigham.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Kolb-List: MkIII antenna location

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:56:32 -0600



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Presently, my plan is to build a dipole antenna, and make the groundplane out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips, in the shape of an "X".  The BNC bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X, where the 1/8" steel rod mast is fastened. 

  

Mike 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  

  
	


Mike what you are describing is a quarter wave antenna with an X shaped ground plane.    A di pole ( di meaning two)   is a radiating element with one  ground element usually mounted in a straight line, and in our case as vertical as possible.  

  

_________________ co _________________   

  

    where co is the coax feed point.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution



	
 		 	   		  Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Learn more.  [quote][b]

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Boyd Sorry, but now  I am  confused. As near VERTICAL as possible?do not archive



On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:56 AM, b young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Presently, my plan is to build a dipole antenna, and make the groundplane out of 1/2" wide copper foil strips, in the shape of an "X".  The BNC bulkhead fitting will be centered on the X, where the 1/8" steel rod mast is fastened.

 

Mike

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 
	


Mike what you are describing is a quarter wave antenna with an X shaped ground plane.    A di pole ( di meaning two)   is a radiating element with one  ground element usually mounted in a straight line, and in our case as vertical as possible.

 

_________________ co _________________ 

 

    where co is the coax feed point.



 	  Quote: 	
		  



style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com

style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: MkIII antenna location

Boyd    

Sorry, but now  I am  confused. As near VERTICAL as possible?   

do not archive  

   

   

Mike what you are describing is a quarter wave antenna with an X shaped ground plane.    A di pole ( di meaning two)   is a radiating element with one  ground element usually mounted in a straight line, and in our case as vertical as possible.  

   

_________________ co _________________         <  horizontally polarized antenna  

   

    where co is the coax feed point.   	  Quote: 	
		   	
  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


Yes vertical:      radio signals can be vertical  OR horizontally  polarized.   

   Example.  

   

            1  most antennas on cars and trucks are vertically polarized,   the broadcast antenna is mounted vertically,   meaning that for best reception  the receive antenna should be mounted vertically.    

            2  back in the old days when everyone had a T V  antenna on the roof they were horizontally polarized.  The broadcast antenna were horizontally mounted and the receive antennas were mounted with the elements in a horizontal position.    

            3  in satellite communications there is another,,,,  circular polarization,,,,  because satellites are generally rotating  to remain stable   a combination of both.    

   

   

When an antenna is transmitting there are 2 different types of energy that come off the antenna.    Static pulses,  and magnetic pulses.    If both tx and rx  antennas are in the same orientation  the receive antenna will capture more of the energy.     

   

My picture above for an aircraft  antenna should have been  

l  

l  

l  

l  

l  

l  

l  

co       coax feed point of a vertically polarized antenna.   

l  

l  

l  

l  

l  

l  

l  

   

I hope this graphic works.  

   

There are some exceptions,,,,   working with ham radio on the H F bands,   when the signal is skipped off the ionosphere   the static and magnetic pulses are mixed up a bit.   And a vertical transmitter and horizontal receive antennas    or visa versa    seem to work well….  But for line of sight transmitting on vhf frequencies  they do not   

   

The antenna in my aircraft has the radiating element goes from the left bottom of the nose cone, up the left side, then horizontal across the top.     I never said it was perfect I said it works.   It does not show, and  creates no drag.    The center part of a dipole antenna has the largest current flows   as compared to the end.   Thus it creates the largest static and magnetic components.    So it is still considered vertical.   I probably could have coiled the top of the antenna to keep it more vertical….  But that creates its own set of problems as well.  The need for a balun or matching network.  

   

Again more than you probably needed or wanted to know  

   

Boyd Young  

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

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