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Upgrade extras?

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richvetterli(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: Upgrade extras?

A question for those who have completed their upgrade.  Did you find that you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit?  L-Angles? Rivets?  Nut/bolts?  Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our upgrades together and want to be prepared.

Thanks,

Rich Vetterli

601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL)

Pleasanton, CA

Check out my progress at: www.n56dv.blogspot.com

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: Upgrade extras?

Hi Rich,



I haven't completed my upgrade yet, but there is one parts related issue I

am wondering about.



The upgrade kit provides hard aircraft rivets for the main wing spar.  I

know from a small amount of experience that I just don't get along with

vibrating rivet guns.  So I am not sure how I will go about dealing with

this part of the upgrade.



One note in the upgrade drawing package includes the notion that it is OK to

replace these rivets with similar sized AN bolts.  This would probably mean

50 or 100 AN3 bolts and nuts.  I'm not sure what the length would be.

Fortunately, AN bolts are easy to get from A/S or other normal suppliers

with little delay.



Another choice is to farm out the rivet setting.  I have been looking around

for "Suckers" to do this, but have not yet found a good candidate.



As usual with ZAC drawings, you need to be careful to be sure you understand

the desired outcome before drilling any holes for a given part. This may be

even more true since the drawings are not drawn in the same style as the

main drawing package.  If you follow the directions you are likely to get in

trouble.



Good luck,



Paul

XL installing upgrade

--

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davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: Upgrade extras?

I found that I went thru about 1000 A-4 and 1000 A-5 rivets.  The kit comes 

with 700 of each.

Also there are not very many extra solid rivets and you will likely need to 

drill out a few that didn't turn out the way you wanted.

You will need a small amount of 0.040 to make a few additional angle 

supports or if you mess one up.

And if your aircraft does not have L-angle in the rear fuselage to prevent 

oil-canning, they don't come with the kit and also need additional rivets.



Gary Ray

davgray(at)sbcglobal.net

---

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Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:20 pm Post subject: Upgrade extras?

Rich & Paul

I would suggest that you do not go the AN3 bolt route. The problem with 

replacing the 3/16" rivets with AN bolts is that the holes from the 3/16" 

rivets are substantially larger than the dia. of AN3's. On my spar caps, 

the rivet holes will accept a #9 drill, measured dia. 0.191", so the hole 

dia. is >= 0.191. The AN3's supplied with my upgrade kit measure 0.183" or 

at least 0.008" smaller than the hole diameter. AC 43.13-1B provide 

guidance on bolt hole diameters:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >7-39.  BOLT FIT.  Bolt holes, particularly

>those of primary connecting elements, have

>close tolerances.  Generally, it is permissible to

>use the first-lettered drill size larger than the

>nominal bolt diameter, except when the AN

>hexagon bolts are used in light-drive fit

>(reamed) applications and where NAS close-

>tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used.  A

This would suggest a #10 hole for an AN3 bolt, but, since my 0.183 dia. 

AN3's are smaller than the minimum specified diameter for an AN3, a #11 or 

#12 might be more appropriate for these particular AN3's.

My understanding is that too large a bolt hole make the joint susceptible 

to fatigue failure by concentrating the shear forces onto a point rather 

than spreading the forces around the circumference of the hole. Apparently, 

the tighter the fit, the better the joint. I asked Zenith about the problem 

with reference to the specified AN3's in the spar root doubler, and the 

answer was:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>Hi Terry,

>>

>>If the holes are larger than a 3/16 I make them 1/4 bolt size.

>>

>>Roger

So, I have ordered AN4's from Spruce to replace the AN3's supplied with my 

upgrade kit. But I only plan to use bolts in the specified locations on the 

spar root doubler plate and the outboard end of the extruded angle. Note 

that the AN3 at the outboard end is not a problem, because it is replacing 

a 5/32" rivet. The hole can be reamed to 0.1875 and fit snugly on an AN3 bolt.

The advantage of the rivets is that the shanks expand to fill the hole, 

thus spreading the shear load to the full circumference of the hole.

I have not been able to consistently set 3/16" rivets with my 3X rivet gun, 

so I am going to use a tool borrowed from an RV-4 builder that uses a ram 

driven by a hammer to set the rivets. Four hard hits with 4# sledge gives 

perfect shop heads, consistently. I can use the tool because I could still 

disassemble my wing completely. The tool would not work on a wing with the 

ribs attached. Other builders have reported success with 4X rivet guns. I 

suspect that someone more skilled than I could drive 3/16" rivets 

successfully with a 3X gun--I just know that the best I ever did was 10 

good sets out of 12 tries on my practice bars. If I was going to use a 

rivet gun, I'd buy or borrow a 4X gun and practice with that a while.

Regarding extra materials, I'm planning to put in the diagonal L-angles in 

the rear fuselage like the 650, so I fab'd a bunch of L-angle using Craig 

Payne's clever bending die. Other extras that I bought were some 3/16" and 

5/32" solid rivets from Spruce and some aluminum bars to practice riveting. 

I didn't want to learn to rivet on my spar.

Details on the L-angle fab and the rivet tool can be seen on my kitlog site 

(link below).

Good luck with your upgrades.

Terry

At 09:28 AM 4/21/2010 -0700, Paul wrote:

[quote]Hi Rich,

I haven't completed my upgrade yet, but there is one parts related issue I

am wondering about.

The upgrade kit provides hard aircraft rivets for the main wing spar.  I

know from a small amount of experience that I just don't get along with

vibrating rivet guns.  So I am not sure how I will go about dealing with

this part of the upgrade.

One note in the upgrade drawing package includes the notion that it is OK to

replace these rivets with similar sized AN bolts.  This would probably mean

50 or 100 AN3 bolts and nuts.  I'm not sure what the length would be.

Fortunately, AN bolts are easy to get from A/S or other normal suppliers

with little delay.

Another choice is to farm out the rivet setting.  I have been looking around

for "Suckers" to do this, but have not yet found a good candidate.

As usual with ZAC drawings, you need to be careful to be sure you understand

the desired outcome before drilling any holes for a given part. This may be

even more true since the drawings are not drawn in the same style as the

main drawing package.  If you follow the directions you are likely to get in

trouble.

Good luck,

Paul

XL installing upgrade

--

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrade extras?

Just finished one and was short A-5 rivets and a few bolts and washers all AN3 variety.



Setting the solid rivets requires the bucking bar to be 5lbs or more to gain satisfactory results.  A bar that weighs less might look like it works but it really doesn't set inside the hole as tight as the 5lbs bar does.  I tested this by setting and removing the rivets using different weight bars and a cleco rivet gun.

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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: Upgrade extras?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hi Paul,  I got my upgrade with AN bolts instead of rivets. When I  went to pick up the kit I mentioned how enthusiastic I was about driving those  rivets, and how I'd rather use ANs. No problem. They put together a bag of ANs  for the wings. They hadn't figured out how many for the spar carry-thru yet, but  that is probably a known number by now. They subtract the cost of the rivets,  add the cost of the ANs, and VIOLA, a much easier upgrade. Costs more, saves  much anguish.   Call Shirley and just tell her what you want..

  

 Paul R.

 [quote]   ---

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