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DwightFrye

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:46 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and

we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we 

have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every

25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of

other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,

etc.).



In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs

and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so

bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In

the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the

plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not

firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs

were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought

I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the

nasty state of the plugs.



One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick

mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where

our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging

I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going

downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that

possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we

are having so much trouble?



At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on

us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in

flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply

full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn

lean for ground ops.



As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already

intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I

hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month

if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?



  -- Dwight

rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Here you go.......

 http://www.decalinchemicals.com/fueladditive.html

 

 

Scott  

RV-8a

  



 

   From: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org>

To: engines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 7:23:53 AM

Subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?



--> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>



I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and

we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we 

have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every

25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of

other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,

etc.).



In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs

and  would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so

bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In

the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the

plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not

firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs

were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought

I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the

nasty state of the plugs.



One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick

mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where

our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging

I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going

downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that

possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we

are having so much  trouble?



At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on

us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in

flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply

full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn

lean for ground ops.



As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already

intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I

hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month

if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?

         [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

My best guess is you are right in the mags getting a bit on the weak side.

I think this may be a place for a lead scavenger (Decathelon?).  But I'd

start off with 1/10th the normal dosage and gradually increase it until the

lead fouling is reduced enough to give you the 25 hr between oil changes.  



You also may consider installing an oil filter.



One other idea that was mentioned to me at one time was to add a detergent

to the oil about 1 hr before an oil change and be sure to drain the oil hot.

That will get out all the old sludge which may be part of your problem.



One other thing I just thought of is the primer sometimes doesn't lock down

properly and causes the engine to run way too rich.  Check the primer to

make sure it doesn't leak when locked down.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

DwightFrye

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Noel (and Scott in another reply),



Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but

unfortunately they say right from the start :



	Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of

	certified aircraft ...



So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to

make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not

be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close

to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited

when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the

past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the

problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. 



Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things

to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following

suggestions :



	* Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better

	  scavenging of the cylinder

	* Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very

	  agressively for a few moments) at the start and end

	  of every flight.

	* Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which

	  we already do)

	* Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the

	  usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out 

	  during the shutdown operation



Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm

whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have

experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.



  -- Dwight



On Wed Apr 21 15:10:40 2010, Noel Loveys wrote :

[quote]




My best guess is you are right in the mags getting a bit on the weak side.

I think this may be a place for a lead scavenger (Decathelon?).  But I'd

start off with 1/10th the normal dosage and gradually increase it until the

lead fouling is reduced enough to give you the 25 hr between oil changes.  



You also may consider installing an oil filter.



One other idea that was mentioned to me at one time was to add a detergent

to the oil about 1 hr before an oil change and be sure to drain the oil hot.

That will get out all the old sludge which may be part of your problem.



One other thing I just thought of is the primer sometimes doesn't lock down

properly and causes the engine to run way too rich.  Check the primer to

make sure it doesn't leak when locked down.



Noel



--

archerwt(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

A guaranteed solution to fouled plugs that won't change your operating procedures is running mogas.  Saves a half hour at annual when you don't have to get a pick to dig at TEL in your lower plugs.  Saves you $2/gal so it'll pay for itself in ~20 hours.

   

 I think the investment would be <$200; find your airframe and powerplant.

  

 Petersen:

 0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A, -E2B, -L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*, -P2C*, -P3C* 

  7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7AC, S7AC, 7BCM, 7CCM, 7DC, S7DC, S7CCM, 7EC, S7EC, 7FC, 7GC, (Aeronca) 7HC, 7GCA, 7JC, 7GCB, 7KC, 7GCBA, 7ECA, 8GCBC



 Todd



 On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>

 

Noel (and Scott in another reply),



Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but

unfortunately they say right from the start :



       Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of

        certified aircraft ...



So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to

make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not

be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close

 to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited

when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the

past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the

 problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. 



Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things

to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following

 suggestions :



       * Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better

         scavenging of the cylinder

       * Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very

         agressively for a few moments) at the start and end

          of every flight.

       * Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which

         we already do)

       * Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the

         usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out

          during the shutdown operation



Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm

whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have

experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.

 

 -- Dwight



[b]

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Dwight:



You did not say what plugs you are using?  I would suggest REM37BY

they have an extended electrode and that improves the spark and makes

it difficult to foul.



Also - Have you:

1 - Checked the GAP of the spark plug?

2 - Check for carbon traces inside the plug tower?

3 - Checked for spring tension of the wires?

4 - Checked for OIL puddling in the cylinders?

5 - Checked the cylinder compression?

6 - Checked for carbon traces under the Mag Cap?

7 - Checked for spring tension under the Mag Cap?

8 - Checked for carbon traces inside the Mag tower?

9 - Checked for proper torque of the plugs?

10 - Checked for a snug fit of the plug wire nut / to spark plug?



Question:  How are the Mags hooked up... Does one Mag fire the bottom

plugs and the other fire the top?  Or does one Mag fire Half the Top

and Half the Bottom?



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

=============================================

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and

 we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we

 have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every

 25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of

 other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,

 etc.).



 In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs

 and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so

 bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In

 the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the

 plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not

 firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs

 were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought

 I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the

 nasty state of the plugs.



 One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick

 mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where

 our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging

 I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going

 downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that

 possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we

 are having so much trouble?



 At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on

 us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in

 flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply

 full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn

 lean for ground ops.



 As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already

 intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I

 hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month

 if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?



  -- Dwight

DwightFrye

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:18 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Lots of good suggestions ... and questions. Thanks guys. I'm going

to just answer this e-mail but will references some other comments

as well.



First, I need to double-check the plugs used. I'll find out when I

go out to the airport tomorrow night. If we aren't using the REM37BY

plugs we'll move to them at annual in a month. 



Regarding the suggestion to move to MOGAS, that had come to mind and

we are fortunate in that the Citabria's previous owner purcahsed the

STC. The challenge is transporting MOGAS (and finding some in our 

area without alcohol, for that matter). But it is getting tempting

to work out a solution to the MOGAS transport problem.



I'll intersperse other comments in Barry's comments/questions ....



On Wed Apr 21 18:18:07 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dwight:



You did not say what plugs you are using?  I would suggest REM37BY

they have an extended electrode and that improves the spark and makes

it difficult to foul.



Also - Have you:

1 - Checked the GAP of the spark plug?


	


Yes, but it has been some time. We should check again right now.



 	  Quote: 	
		  2 - Check for carbon traces inside the plug tower?


	


We have, and have found none. Just chunks of lead.



 	  Quote: 	
		  3 - Checked for spring tension of the wires?


	


I'm unfamilar with this, so could you give me a little more

detail?



 	  Quote: 	
		  4 - Checked for OIL puddling in the cylinders?


	


No. We'll do it.



 	  Quote: 	
		  5 - Checked the cylinder compression?


	


Yes, but it was at the last annual (and was quite good at that

point in time). It'll be checked again in a month.



 	  Quote: 	
		  6 - Checked for carbon traces under the Mag Cap?


	


No. That said, the mags are going to be replaced in a month.



 	  Quote: 	
		  7 - Checked for spring tension under the Mag Cap?


	


No.



 	  Quote: 	
		  8 - Checked for carbon traces inside the Mag tower?


	


No.



In short, we have not yet checked the internal state of the mags

at all within the last handful of months (which is the time where

we have seen the bad spike in lead fouling).



 	  Quote: 	
		  9 - Checked for proper torque of the plugs?


	


Yes. We clean and re-torque at _least_ every 25 hours, and more

often when we have a fouling incident.



 	  Quote: 	
		  10 - Checked for a snug fit of the plug wire nut / to spark plug?


	


Yes.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Question:  How are the Mags hooked up... Does one Mag fire the bottom

plugs and the other fire the top?  Or does one Mag fire Half the Top

and Half the Bottom?


	


I believe it is half-and-half, but should double check. I'll do

that tomorrow night.



This is all good information, and I appreciate folks chiming in to

help me assess the problem. And to be clear (if you are wondering

why I've been so slack .. *grin*) this problem has been growing

gradually, and has only reached a fever pitch within the last two

or three months. Frankly, it is only in the last *month* that we

have really started to think we need to dig deeper. Again, thanks

for all the input!



  -- Dwight

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:41 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Hi Dwight,

Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.

First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is 

looking at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.

Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation 

fuel.  (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)



When you shut down,  push the RPM up some (1600), leave the throttle 

in that position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position.  It 

will blow much of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.



You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used 

that in our fuel.  Do a search on Google and learn about it.  It's 

small $ but when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's 

nothing.  If you use it, you will see a difference.  Be careful 

pulling plugs as often as your are (25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the 

threads and use a calibrated torque wrench to tighten them with so 

you don't pull threads or crack a cylinder.  I think if your use the 

TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will not need 

to pull the plugs every 25 hours.

jerb

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's - 73-7ECA O-235.



 The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking.  Money saved - none.

 jerb



 

 At 02:45 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:

 [quote]A guaranteed solution to fouled plugs that won't change your operating procedures is running mogas.  Saves a half hour at annual when you don't have to get a pick to dig at TEL in your lower plugs.  Saves you $2/gal so it'll pay for itself in ~20 hours.

  

 I think the investment would be <$200; find your airframe and powerplant.

  

 Petersen:

 0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A, -E2B, -L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*, -P2C*, -P3C* 

 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7AC, S7AC, 7BCM, 7CCM, 7DC, S7DC, S7CCM, 7EC, S7EC, 7FC, 7GC, (Aeronca) 7HC, 7GCA, 7JC, 7GCB, 7KC, 7GCBA, 7ECA, 8GCBC

 Todd



 

 On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)> wrote:

   --> Engines-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight(at)openweave.org (dwight(at)openweave.org)>

 

  Noel (and Scott in another reply),



  Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but

  unfortunately they say right from the start :



         Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of

         certified aircraft ...



  So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to

  make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not

  be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close

  to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited

  when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the

  past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the

  problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. 



  Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things

  to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following

  suggestions :



         * Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better

           scavenging of the cylinder

         * Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very

           agressively for a few moments) at the start and end

           of every flight.

         * Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which

           we already do)

         * Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the

           usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out

           during the shutdown operation



  Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm

  whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have

  experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.



   -- Dwight



  

 [b]

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Not true at all. Leaning aggressively with the O-235 is standard

practice in all C152s since they first came out. It will NOT harm the

cylinders. 1000-1200rpm to taxi, as lean as it will take, to the point

of stumbling if you add any throttle. It both raises the combustion

temperature enough to keep the lead compounds from condensing on the

plugs, and eliminates carbon build up. Sounds like you have been

listening to old wive's tales and anecdotal evidence, which has no

real data behind it.

KM

A&P/IA



On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Dwight,

 Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.

 First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is looking

 at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

You can find mogas airports at airnav.com and there is the list of gas 

stations that pump pure gasolene at pure-gas.org.  There are six states 

that mandate no booze in premium fuel. Here in S. Ontario (Canada) I've 

never found booze in any premium gas either - so far...

It is very easy to test for alcohol.

Ken

(350 lead free hours)



Dwight Frye wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Regarding the suggestion to move to MOGAS, that had come to mind and

 we are fortunate in that the Citabria's previous owner purcahsed the

 STC. The challenge is transporting MOGAS (and finding some in our 

 area without alcohol, for that matter). But it is getting tempting

 to work out a solution to the MOGAS transport problem.

archerwt(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Mogas is one of those things; I’ve had absolutely no problems with thousands of gallons run through an O-300.  Maybe that’s the difference and that’s the only engine I’ve run with mogas.  I bet fouling wasn’t one of your problems?  

   

Todd  

   

   

   

I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's - 73-7ECA O-235.

 

 The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking.  Money saved - none.

 jerb

 

 

 

   [quote] [b]

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Hello Dwight and Jerb:



LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.



You should lean so much that the engine almost dies.  You will NEVER

score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent

(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is

minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.



NOW!  The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you

forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of

fuel starvation second after being applied.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Dwight,

 Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.

 First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is looking

 at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.

 Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation fuel.

  (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)



 When you shut down,  push the RPM up some (1600), leave the throttle in that

 position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position.  It will blow much

 of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.



 You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used that

 in our fuel.  Do a search on Google and learn about it.  It's small $ but

 when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's nothing.  If you use it,

 you will see a difference.  Be careful pulling plugs as often as your are

 (25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the threads and use a calibrated torque wrench

 to tighten them with so you don't pull threads or crack a cylinder.  I think

 if your use the TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will

 not need to pull the plugs every 25 hours.

 jerb

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

The reason they called it Low Lead, I call it Lead Loaded, is when it first

came out i was actually a low lead alternative to some of the high octane

aviation fuels available at the time.  It's still great stuff for the guys

who are lucky enough to own one of the original 426 hemis.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

There is an idle jet adjustment on most carbs.  The engine should be leaned

on that jet while warm and at the idle so that you don't see any black puffs

coming out of the exhaust.  



There is also an STC for burning unleaded fuel... not a good idea in the

U.S. where most states won't allow the use of non ethanol gas.  Ethanol

should never be used for anything other than cleaning parts. Another problem

with the STC is many insurance co. Don't like to insure aircraft on the STC.



Noel

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

When you speak of things like O rings and gaskets being eaten by gas I start to suspect something in the gas like Ethanol.  One of the problems with MOGAS is there is not standard for the gas.  Every company has their own recipe which usually changes with the seasons.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Archer

 Sent: April 21, 2010 11:41 PM

 To: engines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: O-235 Plug Fouling?  

  

  

   

Mogas is one of those things; I’ve had absolutely no problems with thousands of gallons run through an O-300.  Maybe that’s the difference and that’s the only engine I’ve run with mogas.  I bet fouling wasn’t one of your problems?  

   

Todd  

   

   

   

I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's - 73-7ECA O-235.

 

 The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking.  Money saved - none.

 jerb

 

 

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DwightFrye

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:41 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Barry,



This is exactly what we do ... every time. In fact, at times I even

have to richen a little just to _taxi_, since it is so lean that it

becomes fuel-starved even with a slight application of throttle.



Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I'll be seeing the condition 

of the plugs here tonight. Bear in mind, our A&P cleaned the bottom

ones just a two -weeks- ago. We probably don't have 5 hours on the

plane since then. Tonight I'm pulling 'em all.



  -- Dwight



On Thu Apr 22 09:33:10 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello Dwight and Jerb:



LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.



You should lean so much that the engine almost dies.  You will NEVER

score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent

(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is

minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.



NOW!  The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you

forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of

fuel starvation second after being applied.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

Dwight,

If your seeing that much of a lead problem in 5 hours, there is some 

thing wrong.  I read some of your comments  and we never taxied with 

mixture leaned out.  I starting to wonder if what your doing is 

inducing more problems than it is solving.  One thing that does help 

clear out the lead is on shut down leave your mixture in rich 

position, bring up the RPM 1500-1600, and pull the mixture.  It will 

help.  Other than that try some TCP additive.  It does help.

jerb

At 07:05 AM 4/22/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Barry,

This is exactly what we do ... every time. In fact, at times I even

have to richen a little just to _taxi_, since it is so lean that it

becomes fuel-starved even with a slight application of throttle.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I'll be seeing the condition

of the plugs here tonight. Bear in mind, our A&P cleaned the bottom

ones just a two -weeks- ago. We probably don't have 5 hours on the

plane since then. Tonight I'm pulling 'em all.

   -- Dwight

On Thu Apr 22 09:33:10 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :

 >Hello Dwight and Jerb:

 >

 >LEANING WHILE TAXING IS A VERY GOOD THING.

 >

 >You should lean so much that the engine almost dies.  You will NEVER

 >score the cylinders due to leaning. The reason being is your percent

 >(%) of power is so extremely low - About 20 to 30% that there is

 >minimal heat produces and almost NO load on the engine.

 >

 >NOW!  The thing is to LEAN very aggressively so much so that if you

 >forgot to push the throttle in for take off - The engine would die of

 >fuel starvation second after being applied.

 >

 >Barry

 >"Chop'd Liver"

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

On 04/21/2010 05:29 PM, Dwight Frye wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but

 unfortunately they say right from the start :

 

 	Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of

 	certified aircraft ...


	




	The certified "equivalent" is TCP Fuel Treatment, available from

Aircraft Spruce:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/alcortcp.php



	I used TCP in my Cessna 150 (O-200) to help address lead buildup

problems, and when I moved to a Glasair with an O-320, I switched to

Decalin RunUp.  Both are good products, and both eliminated the lead

buildup problems that I saw in both engines while running 100LL.



	Note that with TCP you'll need to buy a separate dispenser.  The

Decalin RunUp has the dispenser built-in to the container.



-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/

Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/

DwightFrye

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Cary, NC

Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: O-235 Plug Fouling?

I agree that something is wrong .. which is why I'm reaching out a

bit. Frankly, I suspect our mags are failing but we won't know for

sure until we swap them out in a month.



One thing we have NOT been doing is bringing the RPM up before we

shut down. I'm going to start doing that at a minimum because it

makes a LOT of sense.



  -- Dwight



On Thu Apr 22 11:34:02 2010, jerb wrote :

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dwight,

If your seeing that much of a lead problem in 5 hours, there is some 

thing wrong.  I read some of your comments  and we never taxied with 

mixture leaned out.  I starting to wonder if what your doing is 

inducing more problems than it is solving.  One thing that does help 

clear out the lead is on shut down leave your mixture in rich 

position, bring up the RPM 1500-1600, and pull the mixture.  It will 

help.  Other than that try some TCP additive.  It does help.

jerb

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