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Question about High EGTs on a 912

 
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lgold(at)quantum-associat
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100 RPM yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with OAT about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.
When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a clouds, I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping that this was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why this should be so.
It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days. Since I can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running on a single mag could causing the high EGTs. If you don’t think running on a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.
When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here.
Les

[quote][b]


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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Just a thought, but with only one mag operating you're dumping some raw gas
out into the exhaust that burns right over your EGT sensors. That would
account for the higher EGT's.

Rick Girard

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Les Goldner
<lgold(at)quantum-associates.com>wrote:

[quote] After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100
RPM yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with
OAT about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum
allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I
reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.

When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a
clouds, I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping
that this was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why
this should be so.

It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days. Since I
can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I
was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running
on a single mag could causing the high EGTs. If you don’t think running on
a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use
advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.

When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Les:

Rich hit the nail on the head. Unburnt gas burning in the exhaust
pipes will increase your EGT.

Prove it to yourself... Fly with ans without a Mag on.
Barry

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Les Goldner
<lgold(at)quantum-associates.com> wrote:
Quote:
After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100 RPM
yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with OAT
about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum
allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I
reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.

When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a clouds,
I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping that this
was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why this
should be so.

It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days.  Since I
can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I
was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running
on a single mag could causing the high EGTs.  If you don’t think running on
a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use
advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.

When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here.

Les




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lgold(at)quantum-associat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Barry and Rick,
I hope you guys are right. I'll let you know in a few days when I can fly
again.
FYI, In my 2-stroke Rotax 503, extra gas (i.e., rich burn) decreases temps,
but this I a little different situation.
Les

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sdemeyer



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Hmm, I don't understand how there could be much, if any unburnt gas in the exhaust pipe while running on one ignition module. It is my understanding that both plugs fire at the same time on a 912. I would think you would need a lot of raw fuel to make EGT increase that much. How could there be enough unburnt gas to make a difference? I would suspect something else like a plugged jet or intake vacuum leak.

I know I've had many issues with the carb sockets coming apart. This substantially increased my EGT.

Scott

--- On Wed, 4/28/10, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Question about High EGTs on a 912
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 7:23 AM

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE <[url=/mc/compose?to=flyadive(at)gmail.com]flyadive(at)gmail.com[/url]>

Les:

Rich hit the nail on the head. Unburnt gas burning in the exhaust
pipes will increase your EGT.

Prove it to yourself... Fly with ans without a Mag on.
Barry

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Les Goldner
<[url=/mc/compose?to=lgold(at)quantum-associates.com]lgold(at)quantum-associates.com[/url]> wrote:
Quote:
After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100 RPM
yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with OAT
about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum
allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I
reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.

When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a clouds,
I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping that this
was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why this
should be so.

It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days. Since I
can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I
was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running
on a single mag could causing the high EGTs. If you don’t think running on
a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use
advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.

When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here.

Les



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Hi Scott:
 
With a dual Mag system you are correct... Both Mags fire at the same time.  Or SHOULD!
If because of timing or poor connection they do not there will probably be a poor burn in the cylinder and incomplete burnt fuel will be pushed out the exhause pipes.
The average EGT is between 1300 to 1400 F.  So jumping from 1400 to 1600 is only a 200 F jump.  That is not much - But it is a temp we do not want to see.
 
Cars have experimented with CATALYTIC CONVERTS to burn the incomplete burnt fuel and they get quite hot.  Of course that is also because of the catalytic element.  And burning fuel in the exhaust system with spark plugs and nichrome wire have also been tried.  All this to reduce out exhaust emissions.
 
Barry


 
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Scott DeMeyer <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com (scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote] Hmm, I don't understand how there could be much, if any unburnt gas in the exhaust pipe while running on one ignition module. It is my understanding that both plugs fire at the same time on a 912. I would think you would need a lot of raw fuel to make EGT increase that much. How could there be enough unburnt gas to make a difference? I would suspect something else like a plugged jet or intake vacuum leak.

I know I've had many issues with the carb sockets coming apart. This substantially increased my EGT.

Scott

--- On Wed, 4/28/10, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: Question about High EGTs on a 912
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 7:23 AM


--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Les:

Rich hit the nail on the head.  Unburnt gas burning in the exhaust
pipes will increase your EGT.

Prove it to yourself... Fly with ans without a Mag on.
Barry

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Les Goldner
<lgold(at)quantum-associates.com> wrote:
> After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100 RPM
Quote:
yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with OAT
about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum
> allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I

Quote:
reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.

When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a clouds,
> I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping that this

Quote:
was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why this
should be so.

It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days.  Since I
> can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I

Quote:
was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running
on a single mag could causing the high EGTs.  If you don’t think running on
> a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use

Quote:
advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.

When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here.
>

Quote:
Les



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution


Quote:


ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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Ollie Washburn



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Central Florida

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

EGT will tell you many things and everyone should read up up on the
telltale signs and yes a failed mag or failed plug will show a high EGT on
all cyls for mag and single cyl for failed plug. Electronics International
used to and probable still does give a lot of information in their manual.
You may be able to get it on line and if so it is worth the read.
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:13 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] Hi Scott:

With a dual Mag system you are correct... Both Mags fire at the same time


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AV8ORJWC



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Just a contrarian view. LOP which is less fuel equates to higher EGTs till you are on the backside of the Combustion/EGT curve. Excess gas (including unburned) reduce the temps hence why so many run ROP to save the exhaust valves and lower EGTs. I will enjoy your explanation of the opposite conclusion.

John Cox

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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

John, Lean of Peak IS the backside of the combustion curve and as you say EGT cools. EGT is measured anywhere from 1" to 4" from the exhaust port not at the exhaust valve so while you can cool the valve with excess fuel you will drive up EGT doing it.

Rick Girard

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:14 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>

Just a contrarian view.  LOP which is less fuel equates to higher EGTs till you are on the backside of the Combustion/EGT curve.  Excess gas (including unburned) reduce the temps hence why so many run ROP to save the exhaust valves and lower EGTs.  I will enjoy your explanation of the opposite conclusion.

John Cox

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JimT



Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Auburn, ME

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

yeah but:

if you lean far enough combustion becomes incomplete, so the gas is still burning as the exhaust vavle opens, resulting in a second, higher  EGT. I learned of this when running the leaning test per GAMI. I was alarmed when one cylinder when very high quite rapidly during the lean test. The engine was still running smooth as the 5 other cylinders ( Cherokee 6 , IO 550, , my certified airplane). The gami rep said there will be a second peak, sometimes. The sent a new injector and now the peak is  the same for all cylinders.






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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

John:

ROP & LOP ...
When I took my Complex Training in a Fuel Injected engine I was taught
to Lean - LOP.
I was also told that LOP is ONLY for FUEL INJECTED engines.
All the planes I fly are corroborated so I have never tried to lean LOP.
How much of a fuel savings is it? I have no idea. But, I would
venture to guess in 100 Hrs a year of flying your saving would be 1/4
a GPH so 100 Hrs = 25 Gal... BUT! How much of that 100 Hrs are you in
cruse?

ROP - Now running ROP is a Carburetor issue. And that is mainly
because when leaning not ALL cylinder have the same fuel air ratio. So
they do not all reach the same point at the same time. You lean until
the engine runs rough and then ritchen a bit... How much is a bit?
That will depend on what YOU feel comfortable with. There is NO real
scientific information to go by. It is after all a fishing
expedition. You drop your line in the water and hope you have the
right hook, line, bait and depth. EGT is ONLY an indication and is
variable with probe location, type of probe, air flow around the
engine and calibration of the unit. Probably a few more that I am
missing.

In the long and short of it... We fly for fun and at the end of a year
or even ten years will $200 mean that much? Especially when compared
to an engine overhaul.

Barry

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:
[quote]

Just a contrarian view.  LOP which is less fuel equates to higher EGTs till you are on the backside of the Combustion/EGT curve.  Excess gas (including unburned) reduce the temps hence why so many run ROP to save the exhaust valves and lower EGTs.  I will enjoy your explanation of the opposite conclusion.

John Cox

--


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Ollie Washburn



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Central Florida

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

 John, you are talking about two different scenarios, normal cyl and one with plug not firing. 


On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>

Just a contrarian view.  LOP which is less fuel equates to higher EGTs till you are on the backside of the Combustion/EGT curve.  Excess gas (including unburned) reduce the temps hence why so many run ROP to save the exhaust valves and lower EGTs.  I will enjoy your explanation of the opposite conclusion.

John Cox

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:13 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Yea, but!!

What is the point that you are trying to make?

That you had the wrong or bad injector and that cylinder was running
richer than the others?

That is all that was happening. Running too rich on one cylinder.
Lower the amount of fuel in the rich cylinder, so all the cylinders
will peak at OR close to the same time.

As for: "so the gas is still burning as the exhaust valve opens" -
That is always true. The exhaust valve is OPEN way before the burn
time of the fuel has been completed. There is a huge overlap of
ignition and valve opening.

Barry

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 6:33 PM, <jtortho(at)aol.com> wrote:
[quote]
yeah but:

if you lean far enough combustion becomes incomplete, so the gas  is still
burning as the exhaust vavle opens, resulting in a second, higher  EGT.   I
learned of this when running the leaning test per GAMI.  I was alarmed when
one cylinder when very high quite rapidly during the lean test.   The engine
was still running smooth as the  5 other cylinders ( Cherokee 6 , IO 550,  ,
my  certified airplane).   The gami rep said there will be a second peak,
sometimes.   The sent a new injector and now  the peak is  the same for all
cylinders.
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Generally both mags should fire at the same time but there are exceptions... The C-172 used to have offset mag timing, Several Ads were out to change the timing and then change it back. I’m not sure where it is now and of course there is the question of impulse coupling where one mag will be timing retarded below 500 rpm for starting. Usually those engines are started on one mag then when it starts the second mag is turned on.

When catalytic convertors were first installed on cars some people mistakenly fuelled up with leaded fuel. The catalytic converters, brand new, would try harder and harder to burn off the lead deposits. This would turn the convertors white hot and some melted the frames of their cars. Shortly afterward an insert was put into the gas filler to not allow a leaded nozzle to put gas into an unleaded fuel vehicle.

Just a bit of trivia.


Noel

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: April 28, 2010 2:44 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Question about High EGTs on a 912


Hi Scott:



With a dual Mag system you are correct... Both Mags fire at the same time. Or SHOULD!

If because of timing or poor connection they do not there will probably be a poor burn in the cylinder and incomplete burnt fuel will be pushed out the exhause pipes.

The average EGT is between 1300 to 1400 F. So jumping from 1400 to 1600 is only a 200 F jump. That is not much - But it is a temp we do not want to see.



Cars have experimented with CATALYTIC CONVERTS to burn the incomplete burnt fuel and they get quite hot. Of course that is also because of the catalytic element. And burning fuel in the exhaust system with spark plugs and nichrome wire have also been tried. All this to reduce out exhaust emissions.



Barry





On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Scott DeMeyer <scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com (scottsr1100rt(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
Hmm, I don't understand how there could be much, if any unburnt gas in the exhaust pipe while running on one ignition module. It is my understanding that both plugs fire at the same time on a 912. I would think you would need a lot of raw fuel to make EGT increase that much. How could there be enough unburnt gas to make a difference? I would suspect something else like a plugged jet or intake vacuum leak.

I know I've had many issues with the carb sockets coming apart. This substantially increased my EGT.

Scott

--- On Wed, 4/28/10, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>

Subject: Re: Question about High EGTs on a 912
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 7:23 AM
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Les:

Rich hit the nail on the head. Unburnt gas burning in the exhaust
pipes will increase your EGT.

Prove it to yourself... Fly with ans without a Mag on.


Barry

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Les Goldner
<lgold(at)quantum-associates.com> wrote:
> After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100 RPM
> yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with OAT
> about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum
> allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I
> reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.
>
> When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a clouds,
> I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping that this
> was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why this
> should be so.
>
> It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days. Since I
> can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I
> was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running
> on a single mag could causing the high EGTs. If you don’t think running on
> a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use
> advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.
>
> When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here.
>
> Les
>
>
>
>


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Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Les.
Been there done that, running on one module will increase the EGT. You can bet on it.
Carl
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lgold(at)quantum-associat
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: Question about High EGTs on a 912 Reply with quote

Well, the winds calmed down a little and there was no rain yesterday, so I went flying to see if using a single mag had caused the high EGTs last week. You guys were right! Under similar conditions (OAT, RPM, Altitude) where I had experienced 1620F-degree EGTs using one mag, the EGT temps were reading about 100-degrees lower with both mags.
Glad I don’t have to tear into the carbs. Thanks for the advice guys.
Les

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 3:32 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Question about High EGTs on a 912



Les.

Been there done that, running on one module will increase the EGT. You can bet on it.

Carl
Quote:

----- Original Message -----

From: Les Goldner (lgold(at)quantum-associates.com)

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com) ; rotax(at)yahoogroups.com (rotax(at)yahoogroups.com)

Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:51 AM

Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Question about High EGTs on a 912



After flying my Zenith 701 w/a Rotax 912ULS a few hundred miles at 5100 RPM yesterday I noticed an EGT problem. Toward the end of the flight, with OAT about 65F at 2000’, the EGTs started creeping up to 1620F (the maximum allowed temp) on one exhaust and about 1590F on the other. It dropped when I reduced RPM to 4000 or raised it to 5500RPM.
When I noticed this, I looked around. After getting my head out of a clouds, I also noticed the engine was running on a single mag. I am hoping that this was the cause of the overheating, although I don’t understand why this should be so.
It’s going to be raining here (in N. California) for a few days. Since I can’t fly to check out if running on both mags will bring the EGTs down, I was wondering if anyone in Rotax land had an opinion about whether running on a single mag could causing the high EGTs. If you don’t think running on a single mag caused the problem, and you have seen this before, I could use advice as to how to proceed before tearing the carbs apart.
When I can fly again, I’ll report if the mag issue was the culprit here.
Les
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