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ricksked(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire |
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Make sure your flashlight is hermetically sealed and intrinsically safe for use in an explosive atmosphere! 
do not archive
---- Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
[quote]
PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did
drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by
the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff
inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.
I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple
that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.
With one on each side I can light it up with a
flashlight too.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
> the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
> isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
> or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
> happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
> be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
> said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
> plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
> If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
> you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
> and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
> do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
> through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
>
> Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
> HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
> and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
> just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
> have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
> plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
> that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
> or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
> closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
> in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
> for any amount of fuel leakage.
>
> Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
> in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
> did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
> clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
> It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
> enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
> on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
> just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
> it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
> perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
> issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
> valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
> didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
> I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
> of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
> I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
> same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
> better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
> teflon line much better against work hardening and
> fatigue cracking.
>
> So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
> installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
> about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
> tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
> certainly think through everything in detail first.
>
> Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
> have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
> they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
> really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
> to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
> 100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
> and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
> running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
> decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
> lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
> inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
> leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
> won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
> might have been different if on short final, they pulled
> the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
> glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
> tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
> good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
> I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
> It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
> easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
> With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
> doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
> Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
> spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
>
> One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
> Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
> This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
> in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
> would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
> have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
> some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
> cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
> have helped?
>
> The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
> make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
> and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
> else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
> others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
> immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
>
> It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
> mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
> to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
> his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
> not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
> like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> Stein Bruch wrote:
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
>> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
>> discussed, but I’d caution people against complicating the aircraft
>> trying to create a solution to a problem we don’t even know exists.
>> Firstly, we don’t know what happened to Todd’s airplane other than
>> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a
>> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in
>> the cockpit. Anyone who’s been around old airplanes knows about leaky
>> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
>> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
>> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
>> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
>> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
>> guess I’d look at this this way. It’s like a lot of things with these
>> RV’s. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
>> building it per Van’s recommendations and operating it per
>> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are
>> many thousands of RV’s flying and this is the first time I’m aware of
>> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably
>> are others), but even if that is the case I’ll bet many can be traced
>> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will
>> come off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall
>> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy
>> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of
>> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
>> stock RV10.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I’m not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation
>> is a good thing. I’d just caution the generalized design of yet
>> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you
>> more peace of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem
>> that is verified, then that’s a different story. But, in this case we
>> don’t yet even know what the cause of the problem was…for all we know
>> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into
>> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new
>> system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use
>> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans,
>> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
>> sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
>> forth. You’d need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
>> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches
>> that don’t have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the end It’s like I said, I’m just playing devils advocate a little
>> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
>> before we design systems around it.
>>
>>
>>
>> My 2 cents as usual!
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stein
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny Riggs
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: RV-10 Fire
>>
>>
>>
>> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
>> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
>> remote for about $155.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
>> Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire
>>
>> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
>>
>>
>>
>> also
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
>> McNeill
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV-10 Fire
>>
>>
>>
>> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
>> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city
>> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays
>> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add
>> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed
>> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it
>> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of
>> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the
>> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.
>>
>> ---
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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
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bkbrown(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire |
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What I heard as a casual listener is that installing a vapor sensor wouldn’t hurt anything, and it probably wouldn’t. Would it be another layer of complexity? Sure, on some level. It may or may not have given any benefit in this instance, same thing with a fire suppression system…generally not much use in what sounded like an explosive fuel/air mixture. Given my experience with other monitor systems, the incidence of even one false alarm may cause more harm than help, depending on our reaction to the alarm. Reminds me of one of our employees who broke a hip during a fire drill, then had a heart attack and died. That sounds like something I’d do…
What I heard Stein say effectively, without dissing any particular installation, is that we need to remember that when these RV’s are built simply and per plans and in accordance with AC4313, FAR’s and generally accepted A&P methods, we haven’t seen a propensity toward fuel/explosion hazards. As such we need to avoid a redesign of any particular system without knowing any of the background on the causes of this incident.
Since we have no clue what the fuel system looked like on this particular airplane in terms of design, installation or materials, we’re just going to have to see what develops. What I heard Stein saying was, that in the meantime, build with care, and keep your eyes open.
I remember a fuel vent line broke on of the C-182’s I used to own and totally drenched both my wife and I in avgas when we were in cruise at 6,000 ft, 5 miles from an airport in Nevada. We were both absolutely covered with fuel, it was blowing all over inside the cockpit from the passenger doorpost area (where the rubber vent line joined the aluminum portion). I shut off the master and hoped for the best as my wife held a rag around the area of the doorpost that seemed to be spewing the most fuel. I remember that one as the longest approach to a landing of my life and I’m still amazed that something didn’t spark it.
We all wish a speedy recovery to Todd and his daughter, both mentally and physically. It’s a tough time and I was heartbroken to read about it, but very relieved to know there were no fatalities.
Bob Brown
RV7A-Flying 4 yrs
RV-10 40871 - FWF/Finishing
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:33 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire
I can’t see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin award winner or a modification of significance in any way. We already install CO vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is no different. If I’m wrong, please correct me or explain why my thinking is messed up because I just don’t see anything wrong with it.
Some could argue that it’s not necessary and their perspective would be correct too. After all, we’ve only had one plane explode on us and we don’t even know the cause of it. Any changes could be perceived as a knee-jerk reaction; and at this point they are.
I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though. In an explosion it wouldn’t help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I prefer to keep that stuff outside the cabin.
Phil
From: ddddsp1(at)juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1(at)juno.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire
Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek help from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10 builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors and was very proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of force to get them shut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans. Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear. After all was said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door and it was not flush to the canopy. So he asks me how did we get our doors to fit and close so well? When I showed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work on my plane! LOL And we wonder how doors come off these planes? The point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.
Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate stuff.............lol
Dean
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire |
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Yep, that was kinda my thought. For less than $20 you get a CO sensor that also doubles as a fuel vapor sensor and only requires an idiot light or other flag notification. Seems like a pretty good deal to me. I’m still up in the air on a plumbed in extinguisher but it’s like lots of other things in aviation that you never plan to use, you don’t need it until you need it. It basically follows the three most useless things to a pilot rule. I’ll probably wait with a plumbed in extinguisher but the funny thing is the time I would most likely need it is during fly off. As always Stein has some good points but if we all built “per Vans recommendations, we would all have minimal instruments and Stein’s business would drop like a stone. 
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:33 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire
I can’t see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin award winner or a modification of significance in any way. We already install CO vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is no different. If I’m wrong, please correct me or explain why my thinking is messed up because I just don’t see anything wrong with it.
Some could argue that it’s not necessary and their perspective would be correct too. After all, we’ve only had one plane explode on us and we don’t even know the cause of it. Any changes could be perceived as a knee-jerk reaction; and at this point they are.
I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though. In an explosion it wouldn’t help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I prefer to keep that stuff outside the cabin.
Phil
From: ddddsp1(at)juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1(at)juno.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Fire
Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek help from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10 builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors and was very proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of force to get them shut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans. Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear. After all was said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door and it was not flush to the canopy. So he asks me how did we get our doors to fit and close so well? When I showed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work on my plane! LOL And we wonder how doors come off these planes? The point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.
Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate stuff.............lol
Dean
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: RV-10 Fire |
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| Quote: | >If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
|
and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
do get fuel leaking out.<<
Yep, I thought about exhaust coming in. I also considered the amount of clean air going by (lots) and that it would have to turn 90 degrees. I don't know that it couldn't happen but we've got almost 600 hours and nobody's been poisoned yet (although it may explain a few things, hehe). That said, a CO detector is on my list. Or maybe a canary.
As far as the exhaust being an ignition source, the holes are about three feet aft of the pipes. I suppose it could ignite if flame shot out with a lot of fuel present. But I just didn't like the idea of very much fuel gathering in the tunnel with no place to go so I'll take my chances. Besides, I saved some weight!
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
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Tim Olson
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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire |
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That'll do the job just fine.
Not to mention it's a bit lighter so you can carry some along!
--
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Phil.Perry(at)netapp.com
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: RV-10 Fire |
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Todd just confirmed that he was operating the flap motor at the time it blew. Here's his text...
========================
Wow what a great discussion on Matronics. I told Dave that I thought I was raising the flaps when it blew. My daughter said I was turning it off. Either case the smartest thing to do would have been to open the doors but I didn't know the plane was so packed with fumes. I can tell you if/when I build another RV there will be no fuel lines in the cockpit. I woke up at 2 in the morning thinking about a much better lever free fuel system. If you have time read the Matronics thread it is very good.
========================
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lbgjb10
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: RV-10 Fire |
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very interesting thread and obviously concern for all of us that fly -10. What about a hole in the tunnel and then have a backward fitting like a fuel vent that would 'venturi' out any fumes. it would remove any significant fuel leak and vapors as well. sure glad that father and daughter ended up with minimal medical problems compared to what could have happened. larry
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lbgjb10
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: RV-10 Fire |
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very interesting thread and obviously concern for all of us that fly -10. What about a hole in the tunnel and then have a backward fitting like a fuel vent that would 'venturi' out any fumes. it would remove any significant fuel leak and vapors as well. sure glad that father and daughter ended up with minimal medical problems compared to what could have happened. larry
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