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Brady

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Poulsbo, WA

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: Re: upgrade question

 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh) and I went to Lowes and  bought a 5/16 drill bit and just for shits and grins then drilled about 20  holes in a test piece of spar caps that came from the wing jigs and lo and  behold all of my holes done by hand with a drill came out to .312 to .314 and  the bolts were snug so if you are half way careful you should be able to  just drill the holes. 

 And you can also buy oversized NAS bolts for the inept drillers out there.  

 Jeff

 

	


 

I believe in the Wing Spar & Rear Channel section 6-ZU-1 on page 11 of the upgrade instructions right below the top picture it specifically says:



"The Holes must be reamed to final size, DO NOT use a 5/16 drill bit to Drill the holes."



But what do I know I'm not an aeronautical engineer.

I am however a FORMALLY trained machinist and I do know that if I were to willingly disregard such an instruction and someone were to get hurt it would be grounds for a Lawsuit and perhaps Jail time.



Just food for thought...

_________________
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: upgrade question

 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  All of this reamer talk got me thinking (Scary Huh) 	




Yeah it is, stop doing that!!!!!  The information you have published is incorrect and inaccurate.



The Machinery's Handbook lists a study done by the Metal Cutting Institute where 2800 holes were drilled in steel and cast iron and the results for 1/4" were average oversize of .0065" and 1/2" were .008" oversize.



When an Engineer says to ream a hole, you better ream the hole.



Jeff, some times the things you say can be dangerous, especially if you are like me and think you know the answers.  I have finally reached a point in life where I know, I don't know it all.



Wish you well,

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:44 pm Post subject: upgrade question

Hey Brady,

    

   Then I would suggest you don't install my TEST PIECE in your airplane HUH???!!!!

 

 Jeff

   

 

 

   --

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: upgrade question

So you are telling me that the holes I drilled in my test piece were somehow wrong because of some other test that was done?

    

   I never said do it I said I was testing it for SHITS AND GRINS and found the holes would be within tolerance. And you can also mess a hole up with a reamer as well if you use a drill and are not used to using it. 

    

   You and Brady must have had lunch together today and forgot how to read.

    

   Jeff

    

 

 

   

 

 

   --

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: upgrade question

O and BTW aluminum is much softer than steel and cast iron now isn't it. And was the hole already there or where these new holes? Did they use high speed bits or low speed, oil or no oil? was the test done by hand or using a drill press? New drill bits or old? was the test done by average people or machinists? What was the thickness? 

    

   I drilled the freaking holes and they were within tolerance .002 under so they would be acceptable if I were to use them.  

    

    

    If you are going to correct me at least compare apples to apples. OK?

    

   

 

  

   

 

 

   --

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: upgrade question

I thought we were talking about reaming holes not each other.

I will drill some test pieces as well before I do the Spar.

If someone could point me to the oversize NAS bolt store. Maybe I'll try that instead of reaming to .375.

Chuck

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: upgrade question

Chuck,

    

   Shirley at Zenith can give you the source for the oversized bolts. If you decide to switch to 3/8 you still need to use NAS bolts even though the diameter of the 3/8 bolt is larger.

 

   Jeff

 

   

 

 

   --

pavel569

Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 77

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: Re: upgrade question

I'm not an aeronautical engineer as well but I'm a machinist and some of my parts are flying in space, so I might have some experience and skills. In my case I always use jigs or fixtures, even for riveting so I hold the rivet gun perpendicular to the riveted surface. For reaming - there is no question that I'll use drill guide clamped to the material. If you don't use reamer with guide, the hole you reamed can be not only out of center of your original drilled hole (which doesn't necessarily has to be round) but oblong as well. I don't know how you check the diameter of the holes you drill or ream but if you use pins you'll measure the minor diameter only. it means - in extreme - I can  have a slot of .250" width and length of 2" and you still fit through .250" pin. Unless you use optical comparator (which I do for my work, not for Zodiac build) you can't say that the hole you drilled is perfectly round and within tolerances. 



I know we're not building space shuttle but some of the comments about reaming and drilling brought chill on my back and let my hair to stand up (which actually made me happy as I'm almost bald)   .

_________________
Pavel
CA
Zodiac 601XL
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings, fuselage, canopy done ...
"do not archive"

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: upgrade question

Chuck, I looked for some oversize AN3's for the spar root doubler joint. 

They were very hard to find, and pricey when I found them--check out:



http://www.arizona-aero.com/nas_list.html



You'll need to request a quote, and, for that you'll have to decipher the 

part number codes. Ultimately, I decided to go with AN4's. They are about 

40x cheaper than over size NAS6204-11's. (I believe, but I'm not positive, 

that oversize AN's do not exist. The oversize bolts all seem to be NAS's. I 

suspect it's a tolerance thing.)



Terry

At 08:43 PM 5/21/2010 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I thought we were talking about reaming holes not each other.

I will drill some test pieces as well before I do the Spar.

If someone could point me to the oversize NAS bolt store. Maybe I'll try 

that instead of reaming to .375.

Chuck


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;

Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: Re: upgrade question

Well put Pavel! 

I think this is why I may go to .375". The layers will be held in higher tension.  The bolts are stronger but may be very close to being out of tolerance (edge distance) But at least the holes can be reamed after all the parts ate in place (only from the aft drilling forward) opening the hole from a somewhat sloppy 5/16" to .375 (for NAS bolt) with the final reamer being .374 ( subject to testing ). Maybe I drink too much coffee! 

Comments? 

Chuck

CH650 65%

PS I will call Zenith to get the NAS oversize source.

Brady

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Poulsbo, WA

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 11:54 am Post subject: Re: upgrade question

Gentlemen,



The part #'s for the over sized bolts are:

NAS6205-22x

NAS6205-23x

the "X" in the part # specifies the over size.

Also there is a "y" for the next over size.

I forget if the oversize increments are .010" or .015" for the "X" but the "Y" is 2 times the "X" dimension. (.020" or .030").

Regardless I had a very lengthy discussion with Caleb about this because I have 2 airplanes in my shop that will require over sized bolts.

Caleb told me to "avoid over sizing to 3/8 if at all possible."

His reason for this is that at 3/8 the minimum edge distance becomes dangerously close.



My experience with sourcing the oversize bolts is that they are very rare and very expensive.

I sourced certified bolts (at) $40 each.

I was lucky to find some surplus bolts without certification papers for $10 each and so I bought all they had. Unfortunately this still is not enough to complete both airplanes. so the search continues.



Just because the animal exists doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to hunt! Or that you will bag one 



For what its worth:

A 2 flute drill will produce a hole with 3 corners.

A 3 flute drill will produce a hole with 4 corners.

A 4 flute drill will produce a hole with 5 corners.

and so on.

With each additional flute the corners decrease in depth.

the formula is N+1 (N=number of flutes).

I learned this in my first week as an apprentice with the IAM (International Aerospace Workers & Machinists Union) 

I think this is covered in the Machinery's Hand book as well?

_________________
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com

bill.pagan(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: upgrade question

The "X" is .015 oversize and the "Y" is .030 oversize.

 

Bill Pagan 

 



 

   From: Brady <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 3:54:59 PM

Subject: Re: upgrade question



--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com (brady(at)magnificentmachine.com)>



Gentlemen,



The part #'s for the over sized bolts are:

NAS6205-22x

NAS6205-23x

the "X" in the part # specifies the over size.

Also there is a "y" for the next over size.

I forget if the oversize increments are .010" or .015" for the "X" but the "Y" is 2 times the "X" dimension. (.020" or .030").

Regardless I had a very lengthy discussion with Caleb about this because I have 2  airplanes in my shop that will require over sized bolts.

Caleb told me to "avoid over sizing to 3/8 if at all possible."

His reason for this is that at 3/8 the minimum edge distance becomes dangerously close.



My experience with sourcing the oversize bolts is that they are very rare and very expensive.

I sourced certified bolts (at) $40 each.

I was lucky to find some surplus bolts without certification papers for $10 each and so I bought all they had. Unfortunately this still is not enough to complete both airplanes. so the search continues.



Just because the animal exists doesn't necessarily mean it will be easy to hunt! Or that you will bag one 



For what its worth:

A 2 flute drill will produce a hole with 3 corners.

A 3 flute drill will produce a hole with 4 corners.

A 4 flute drill will produce a hole with 5 corners.

and so on.

With each additional flute the corners decrease in depth.

the formula is N+1  (N=number of flutes).

I learned this in my first week as an apprentice with the IAM (International Aerospace Workers & Machinists Union) 

I think this is covered in the Machinery's Hand book as well?



--------

Brady McCormick

Poulsbo, WA

www.magnificentmachine.com





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopsp;                   -Matt Dr=============



         [quote][b]

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: upgrade question

For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (None in the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything from 10 lb lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50 mm apart, loose spar bolts, bottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of these failed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts remained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be reamed if at all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that have drilled spar bolts and are safe.  Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok but not sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically correct. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my own spars with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now believe the spar and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and after seeing the sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I believe and and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for the failures. 

 

   

  

   

 Jeff

 

   --

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: upgrade question

I think Brady is trying to be the WW of Matronics. All technical and stuff but wrong just the same.

   But hey what do I know I just built 3 flying 601's.

    

   That was my last pissing match post I have too many upgrades to do.

    

   Jeff

 

 

   

 

 

   --

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: upgrade question

Thanks for the part numbers. I assume that is for the bolt only and the nut will have a different equally complex part number.

floyd wilkes

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 39
Location: spring branch, tx

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: upgrade question

Actually, no. The nut is the standard nut for a AN5.  The threads are the

same size just the shank is oversized.



Floyd Wilkes

601XL  flying after upgrade.



--

_________________
Floyd Wilkes

Louie928

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Mosier, OR USA

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: upgrade question

I have a set of adjustable size reamers turned by hand in a tap chuck. I started with slight under size holes and slowly worked my way up to where the spar bolts were a tight push fit. The adjustable reamers have a very slight taper so the end fits in the under size hole. You run the reamer all the way through so it doesn't leave a tapered hole.

_________________
Louis W. Ott

601XL-B Corvair

Brady

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Poulsbo, WA

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: upgrade question

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The "X" is .015 oversize and the "Y" is .030 oversize.

 

Bill Pagan 	




Thank you Bill,

That had slipped my mind and my coffee had not kicked in yet.

_________________
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com

Brady

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Poulsbo, WA

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: Re: upgrade question

 	  afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  For what it is worth I have done 4 upgrades and built 3 flying 601's (None in the dirt BTW) and I have taken apart 7 601's and have seen everything from 10 lb lead shot bags in the wingtip, wing AOA 50ï¿½mm apart, loose spar bolts, bottomed out spar bolts, smaller bolts for rear attach point. And non of these failed. And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts remained. Now as a matter of engineering of course the holes should be reamed if at all possible but remember there are thousands of aircraft flying that have drilled spar bolts and are safe.  Zenith once told us alittle loose is ok but not sloppy but after what has happened every thing has to be technically correct. I use a reamer but wouldn't think one minute about drilling my own spars with a drill bit because I know I can do it correctly and I now believe the spar and center section wasn't the problem to begin with and after seeing the sloppy building of some of these aircraft that didn't break apart I believe and and have always believed flutter is the most likely reason for the failures. 

 

   

  

   

 Jeff

 

   -- 	




Jeff,

I want to point out that just because a substandard assembly has not failed yet, doesn't mean that it won't fail in the future, or that it can some how be thought of as safe.

Encouraging, justifying and or down playing the dangers of sloppy building practices is irresponsible at best.

The last thing the 601 community needs is for "Up Graded" 601's to fall out of the sky.

That would cause serious problems for everyone.



Your willingness to openly admit that you would cut such corners on your own plane only makes people wonder what corners you cut or are willing to cut on their airplanes. 

Why would you hold a higher standard for the safety of others than you do your own?



The fact that you think you can drill a hole with a 2 fluted drill bit that is some how good enough with out reaming, when the directions specifically call for a Reamed hole, only proves that you don't understand the reasons behind the process.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

And as a matter of fact none of the wing attach bolts broke or were the cause of wing failures. The spar snapped at the first bolt hole but the bolts remained. 

	




This statement says it all:

Apparently you don't understand why the bolts are being over sized?

No one is concerned that the bolts are breaking. 

Did it ever occur to you that the reason that spar broke at that hole was because perhaps the fit between the bolt and the hole was too loose and it was able to work the hole open further until it finally broke?

Or maybe it was one of those sloppy building techniques you mentioned earlier that hadn't failed yet but finally did?



The difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional knows enough to know what he doesn't know, and is able to park his ego long enough to ask the questions he needs to do the job right.



Your personal attacks are only a sign that you have exhausted your technical experience and knowledge.



The fact that you have built 3 flying 601s and upgraded 4 does not make me rest easy, it causes me great concern.



I don't see this as a pissing contest, I see it as an opportunity to teach and learn.

_________________
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com

Last edited by Brady on Sun May 23, 2010 12:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: upgrade question

Hey, Brady.



Not to be a picky twitch, but the word "armature" in your post to Jeff describes a thing that spins around with a lot of motion, but in the end, goes nowhere.



"Amateur", on the other hand, is a thing that expends a lot of energy but ends up with little to show for it.



Come to think of it, you're original usage may be correct after all...



Rick

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