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FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

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Pete Fowler

Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 76
Location: California

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 7:06 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

While I can't get in touch with the people who can help over the weekend, I thought I'd post this for reference.



I have a pre-moratorium Nanchang with operating limitations that have few limitations (virtually none) that the aircraft has been operating under since 1991.



Out of the blue my local FSDO called and said they had my "new operating limitations". I went and reviewed them at the FSDO and politely declined to accept or sign them and am contacting EAA warbirds and another source at the FAA who I haven't heard back from yet but, in a nutshell, the FSDO is trying to put all the limitations on my plane that are "normal" for Nanchangs but is markedly different than the ones I have. The only thing they left in there was that there is no range restriction. I don't and they don't understand what pre-moratorium really means in terms of what they can and can't do.



So I'm wondering if anyone knows the actual regulations that cover re-writing operating limitations. The plane has had no configuration change, nor did I request a change of operating limitations so am wondering under what regulation the FSDO can not only re-write but add a lot of contradictory and confusing limitations (suddenly it's VFR day only but later it's VFR only if not equipped for night VFR, stuff like that). I know there are a lot of opinions but I'd like to be able to read the actual regulations regarding this but can't seem to find anything on the FAA website due to an overwhelming number of hits on the search.

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Peter,

  

 My comment is the FSDO does not need to understand what Pre  Moratorium means.  All they have to do is read the words in the  Order.  If the aircraft received its Special Airworthiness Certificate  prior to July 9, 1993, it is not affected by the Order.  It doesn't matter  what it means.  The words are quite clear.

  

 FAA Order 8130.2F Change 4.  Paragraph d and e  are the important paragraphs with paragraph e begin the  most important.  (Page 166)  It reads:

  

 d. Experimental Airworthiness Certification Moratorium.  On July 9, 1993, a moratorium was  established because of a dramatic increase in applications for special  airworthiness certificates and SFAs for non-U.S.-manufactured aircraft that did  not hold TCs issued under § 21.29. The moratorium was lifted on August 18, 1993,  with interim guidance provided to certificate these aircraft. Although the  moratorium was established for non-U.S.-manufactured aircraft, this policy will  be used when issuing a special airworthiness certificate for the experimental  purpose(s) of exhibition or air racing, regardless of the country of  manufacture. 

 e. Effectivity. Aircraft that received original  airworthiness certification before July 9, 1993, are NOT affected by this order  unless the original airworthiness certification purpose changes, for example,  from R&D to exhibition. Those aircraft, except for purpose changes, will not  be affected until the FAA works with the public to determine the best strategy  to certificate all experimental exhibition and/or air racing aircraft in  accordance with the new policy. The policy established in this order will not be  used in these cases unless specifically requested by the applicant.  

  

 I think the  operative words that require explanation and justification by your  FSDO are: "Those aircraft, except for purpose changes,  will not be affected until the FAA works with the public to  determine the best strategy to certificate all experimental exhibition and/or  air racing aircraft in accordance with the new  policy."

  

 If a new policy has been established which we or EAA or WBA  are not aware of, ask your FSDO to give you a copy of this new policy.  It  also says in the last sentence, "The policy  established in this order will not be used in these cases unless specifically  requested by the applicant." 

 Since you have not requested a purpose change, like from  Exhibition to Air Racing, the FSDO should be able to give you a bonafide  reason to reissue  your OL's.

  

 Any aircraft issued a new Experiment Exhibition Special  Airworthiness Certificate today will be issued Operating Limitations in  accordance with the present FAA Order, 8130.2F Change 4.  Thus, the  FSDO has to use the latest version of the Order to issue or change OL's.   The latest version contradicts what your FSDO decided to do with your  OL's

  

 Finally, and most important of all is the statement  "Aircraft  that received original airworthiness certification before July 9, 1993, are NOT  affected by this order unless the original airworthiness certification purpose  changes, for example, from R&D to exhibition."  ARE  NOT AFFECTED BY THIS ORDER is in English and is quite plain and simple to  understand.  The English language is not subject interpretation.   

  

 I will be anxious to hear what the EAA/WBA has to say as well as your FSDO  when you present your case to them.

  

  Dennis

  

  ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:48 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Researching Change 5 to 8130.2F, issued in April of 2010,  paragraph's "d" and "e" on page 166 are identical to Change 4.   Therefore, in my previous email, replace the words "Change 4" with the  words "Change 5".  FWIW, the word "moratorium" only appears in these two  paragraphs in the entire Order.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

I know this for a fact, and it is LAW.  



NO FSDO CAN ADD TO THE CURRENT OPERATING LIMITATIONS WHEN TRANSFERRING

AN AIRCRAFT FROM ONE FSDO TO ANOTHER.  Mine tried to do that, and I

nailed them to the cross on it and told them it was illegal.  They took

out their "new" limitations they had "added".  



However, I do not know whether a CURRENT FSDO can just walk up and add

crap to your operating limitations, but I don't THINK they can.  



My FSDO told me TODAY that you can also get current limitations REMOVED

(line by line) if you can justify the reasons, but it is their decision

on whether to accept your request, and they ALSO said that all of our

aircraft are initially assigned a GENERIC set of operating limitations

"just because".  This is what appears that they are trying to do to you.

And there is indeed a whole slew of them.  



I think you are taking exactly the right actions.  If you have a current

set of operating limitations that are valid, and also a current

airworthiness certificate, unless they are revoked, you don't HAVE to do

anything. 



Please keep us up to date on this one~!   



Mark

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:32 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

A much better answer than mine!  Thanks Dennis!  



Mark

 



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Pete Fowler

Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 76
Location: California

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium ai

Thanks very much Dennis, at the end of the day it's easiest to point to the actual regulation and simply cite it! Apparently word had already gotten around the local FAA guys that I was "causing trouble" by not accepting the changes   



On the plus side, I did my first formation flying yesterday with Craig Ekberg so it reminded my why this hassle is worth it!

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Regarding the FAA, it's a matter of what is right.  Even  though they have the power, that doesn't make them right no matter  what.

 Fly Safe.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium ai

I am also going through something similar with My Experimental Exhibition Motor Glider.



When I bought the aircraft I moved it to a different FSDO's jurisdiction so i thought I had to update the Operating Limitations.



The FAA fellows initial response was that he did not find any direction requiring me to do that.



But I did find my special airwothiness cert and Op limitations date did not match and wanted to rectify the situation.



I had SA Cert dated 1991 and Op Lim's dated 1993.



I was informed that the FAA had no record of any of them in their archives since 1984!



Did they conveniently loose all the unlimited special airworthy certs from Scottdale,AZ  before archiving. ...jeez what the heck is going on!



Called the AZ FSDO and they did not have them either.



So now it looks like I will have to apply again. and go through the hassle all over, because nobody in the FAA knows much about self launch gliders (motor gliders)



I did find it good to hear that the FAA can not arbitrarily change your Op Lims, but what if they lose them? 



Frustrated,



Ray

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Ray, based on what I have learned, the Operating Limitations must be

updated when you purchase the aircraft, because: 



1.  The new special airworthiness certificate needs to be in your name,

which means it now has a new date. 

2.  The operating limitations must have a date on it that matches your

special airworthiness certificate. 

   

You should have the previous airworthiness certificate and operating

limitations from the previous owner on hand.  The FAA does not have to

have a record of ANYTHING.  YOU HAVE THE RECORD IN YOUR HANDS!  You make

a copy and send it to them, they type up new ones and CHANGE NOTHING,

and you're done.  



My unsolicited advice... You should NOT start all over again unless you

have no copies of anything as well, and then you're toast.  



Again, if they lose them... That's their problem, not yours.  IF YOU

HAVE THEM, you just tell them to type them up.  



Mark

 



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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Mark,

 FWIW, the Special Airworthiness Certificate or any  Airworthiness Certificate for that matter is never in the name of any individual  or corporation.  The Certificate is issued for the airplane, not an  individual.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Rog.. I stand corrected. 



More info to follow on engine AD's.  I am talking to a whole slew of FAA

guys right now, that are HELPING.  Obviously not in THIS area. 



Mark

 



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isaligman(at)saligman.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Living on the border of two FSDO’s I’ve seen differences between them.   Maybe 2 years ago I had to register a YAK with  the Philadelphia FSDO.   They didn’t care what I had from the former owner, they gave me a their own version of the Operating Limitations, which were pretty much the same form as the Wright brothers example on the website.  (Someone at the  FAA had a sense of humor).  This group didn’t want to change a thing.   They also didn’t have the resources to inspect the plane so I went to find a DAR.  All of the DARs seemed knowledgeable on homebuilt but none had  experience with Exhibition class aircraft.  Apparently this meant they all had their own interpretation of the rules for exhibition.    

   

I felt like I was a kid playing the game of if Mom says no, ask Dad, then ask another mom and another and another.  Well as luck would have it, one of the DARs told me the aircraft couldn’t be reinspected but that the FAA had to sign off on the last inspection, Odd as it sounded, by the end of the phone call, he agreed to call the FAA folks, who I was dealing with and share this invaluable knowledge with them.  When I called a few days later, they told me everything was fine and to come in to pick up my paperwork.   

   

Strange story: yes,  but it shows the magnitude of differences in interpretation of the regs and the value of finding the right person.    

   

   

   

   

Ira Saligman  

   

   

(610) 324-5500  

f (215) 243-7699  

   

isaligman(at)saligman.com (isaligman(at)saligman.com)  

   

   

       [quote][b]

Pete Fowler

Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 76
Location: California

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium ai

So where this has ended up is that the FSDO acknowledges that they can't add any of 8130s limitations to my operating limitations BUT they are dead set on adding an arrival/departure route to the first line of my limitations under the provisions of FAR 91.319 flight over congested areas:



(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.



They propose to do this with a (r) revision to my existing limitations, supposedly being sure that the airworthiness certificate still retains the original 1991 date (and I'm going to be sure that no language implies that my operating limitations have been "re-issued" thus creating the possibility that some future FSDO could say "oh they were issued in 2010, it's no longer pre-moratorium".



Not sure the point of this but they seem to be within their rights to do it.

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:37 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

Seems reasonable Pete.  Glad you "convinced" them they  can not just arbitrarily rewrite your OL's.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra

I have a suggestion for you based on my recent personal experience with

the FAA over similar issues.  



CALL THE EAA AND TALK TO THEIR GOVT. AFFAIRS REPRESENTATIVE.  



Do it now.  Don't pass go or collect $200.   These folks gave me

accurate information, advised me what to put in a letter to the FAA,

gave me contacts to Aviation Lawyers (for free no less) and MUCH more.  



Long discussion: Deleted.  



Enough said. 



Mark Bitterlich

--

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