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Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:03 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Hi group,

     my neighbor purchased a used MK lll after watching me  flying around in the firestar enjoying life. I told him he could use my strip  and I would get him lined up with a instructer to get his license. I did not use  the flaps on the trip as I did know the proper use of them....I was very  impressed with the plane and the performace that the rotax 912 80 hp provides.  after getting home I went up solo and tried the flaps at low speed and I  was impressed at full flaps how the plane handled and it decreased stall  speed...so I landed it with full flaps which i thought was a big plus....my  question is this. what is the proper use of flaps for take off if  any? I think the MK lll performs excellent with the 912 80 hp solo.  I  also noticed a lot of difference in trim requiement from dual to solo....another  question: at high speed the door lexan pops inward and has to be pushed back out  my hand after landing...have any of you had this problem and what is the  fix?  Thanks in advance    Jim Swan

  

 Do not  archive

FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan

  [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Jswan  

   

Never had the oil can door problem…   I suspect that the lexan was pulled too tight from top to bottom when it was installed.   When visiting in Washington state I saw a mkIII that had an extra brace welded from the top and bottom of door panel to hold the lexan in the proper curve.    

   

In flying the mkIII with flaps:    I have tried takeoffs with  0    20    40 deg flaps.   The shortest takeoff is with 20 deg.     0 and 40 deg takeoff were almost the same.     I almost always land with 20 deg    but have practiced with 0 and 40 deg as well.    20 seems right,   but I can make a steeper approach with 40,,  if I were to turn base leg too soon on a short runway.     On my flap handle   and  the squared off detents  I cut them  with a  /\ (inverted V)   rather than leaving the edges square.   This way it will not be prone to coming out.     Thinking that if I were ever to rebuilt this area,,,   I may add positions for   0   10   20   30    40  deg of flaps..    by cutting the squared off detents  more like the trim  handle.  Which I modified the slots to look more like a saw tooth blade.   Rather than the strait in saw cuts.   

   

Boyd Young  

MKIII   

   

   

   

   

   

Hi group,  

    my neighbor purchased a used MK lll after watching me flying around in the firestar enjoying life. I told him he could use my strip and I would get him lined up with a instructer to get his license. I did not use the flaps on the trip as I did know the proper use of them....I was very impressed with the plane and the performace that the rotax 912 80 hp provides. after getting home I went up solo and tried the flaps at low speed and I was impressed at full flaps how the plane handled and it decreased stall speed...so I landed it with full flaps which i thought was a big plus....my question is this. what is the proper use of flaps for take off if any? I think the MK lll performs excellent with the 912 80 hp solo.  I also noticed a lot of difference in trim requiement from dual to solo....another question: at high speed the door lexan pops inward and has to be pushed back out my hand after landing...have any of you had this problem and what is the fix?  Thanks in advance    Jim Swan  

   

Do not archive

 FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan   	  Quote: 	
		   	
  

   

       [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Hi Jim:

  

 In my opinion, having flown my mkIII over 1200.0 hours powered  with a 912 80 hp, that is the best overall combo for the mkIII, unless you are  going to be flying in higher elevations a lot.

  

 At normal cruise the 80 burns 4.0 gph, 100 burns 5.0.   Spark plugs last twice as long, 200 over 100 hours, and it operates on 87 octane  mogas.

  

 Jim, this is the way I fly my mkIII:

  

 Normally, never use flaps for takeoff, and especially  climb.  Flaps degrade climb performance on the mkIII.

  

 Rough, muddy, soft sand, tall grass and weeds, I use 20  degrees (half flaps).  Soon as wheels break ground, I slowly remove  flaps.

  

 A method that works well for me to break ground quickly  is:

  

 Start my takeoff roll clean.

  

 At 30 mph (where my mkIII stalls in ground effect w/full  flaps) I snatch in 40 degrees (full flaps).  She hops off the ground  immediately.  Slowly remove flaps soon as wheels are in clear  air.

  

 Lots of difference in pitch trim between solo and two  up.  That is normal.

  

 Door glass pops in:

  

 Lexan wasn't riveted on the door frame  satisfactorily.

  

 Not enough curvature in window.

  

 Door doesn't fit fuselage well.

  

 I don't know.  

  

 Flaps work extremely well during approach and  landing.

  

 Lose a lot of altitude quick while maintaining lower air  speeds.

  

 Use a good light control touch.  

  

 CAUTION:  

  

 -Full flaps at high speeds with abrupt aft stick will  partially blank out out elevator.

  

 -Landing flare, two up, full flaps, too slow, too abrupt, may  result in running out of elevator during full stall 3 point  landings.

  

 Worth what you paid for it. 

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:05 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Boyd:

  

 I use a 5/32" chain saw file to keep my detents  nice and sharp.

  

 I also popped a new tab over the old detents to  reset the detents to their original positions.

  

 Time and use will round the edges.  Nothing  worse than being on short short final and the flap handle pop out from 40 to  zero degrees flaps.  The bottom falls out and it makes a Hell of a noise at  the same time.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]       On my flap handle   and     the squared off detents  I cut them  with a  /\ (inverted    V)   rather than leaving the edges square.   This way it    will not be prone to coming out.     Thinking that if I    were ever to rebuilt this area,,,   I may add positions    for   0   10   20      30    40  deg of flaps..    by cutting the    squared off detents  more like the trim  handle.  Which I    modified the slots to look more like a saw tooth blade.   Rather    than the strait in saw cuts. 

      

    

Boyd    Young   

MKIII       

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: Re: flap info for MK lll needed

Hello Jim,



I use the first flap detent for landing, I have found that the second detent does not lower stall, it only causes drag and not enough drag does not seem to be a problem with my MKIII.  My right door will pop in at high speed, I have not come up with a fix but was thinking of making a bow that fits inside the door frame that backs up the lexan in that area.  My short term fix is to not fly at high speeds.  With no fine pitch trim adjustment, I have found that you can get close with the pitch trim lever and fine tune with throttle as the higher the power the more nose down my MKIII wants to fly.  I was just messing around with flaps on take off today and think that they would only be useful when really trying to get off of a short/soft surface and then be retracted ASAP when airborne. 



Good luck and have fun

Jason

MKIII

Portland, OR



[quote="Arksey(at)aol.com"]Hi group,

     my neighbor purchased a used MK lll after watching me  flying around in the firestar enjoying life. I told him he could use my strip  and I would get him lined up with a instructer to get his license. I did not use  the flaps on the trip as I did know the proper use of them....I was very  impressed with the plane and the performace that the rotax 912 80 hp provides.  after getting home I went up solo and tried the flaps at low speed and I  was impressed at full flaps how the plane handled and it decreased stall  speed...so I landed it with full flaps which i thought was a big plus....my  question is this. what is the proper use of flaps for take off if  any? I think the MK lll performs excellent with the 912 80 hp solo.ï¿½ I  also noticed a lot of difference in trim requiement from dual to solo....another  question: at high speed the door lexan pops inward and has to be pushed back out  my hand after landing...have any of you had this problem and what is the  fix?  Thanks in advance    Jim Swan

  

 Do not  archive

FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

My right door will pop in at high speed,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Jason


	




Jason:



Maybe you and Jim S are flying out of yaw trim.



If the door glass that is dimpling is on the up wind side, it may be causing 

the problem.



Wish I could do a quick test flight to see if I could dimple my door.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

John

  

 you popped a new tab to reset the  detents to the original positions,,,,,,,,   

 what positions were they before  resetting??   Had they moved due to filing or had you made some custom  flap settings??

  

  

 Boyd 

  

  

  

 Boyd:

  

 I use a 5/32" chain saw file to keep my detents  nice and sharp.

  

 I also popped a new tab over the old detents to  reset the detents to their original positions.

  

 Time and use will round the edges.  Nothing  worse than being on short short final and the flap handle pop out from 40 to  zero degrees flaps.  The bottom falls out and it makes a Hell of a noise at  the same time.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  



   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Boyd:

  

 New tab to return to original  positions. 

  

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: flap info for MK lll needed

[quote="John Hauck"]Hi Jim:  

<snip>  

 -Landing flare, two up, full flaps, too slow, too abrupt, may  result in running out of elevator during full stall 3 point  landings.

  

 Worth what you paid for it. 

  

 john h

 mkIII  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     --- 	




I used some heavy clear tape to seal the gap between the elevator and stabilizer, and no longer run out of elevator in that situation. Also have put vg's on the underside of the forward part of the horizontal stab, but I would try the tape first, the vg's may not be necessary for this application. Or maybe they would ~ since I installed both at once, there is no way of knowing which ones actually did the fix -



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:18 pm Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Jim

  

 You have been busy. Send photos of the plane. You be careful you might just end up with a second airplane or selling that firestar. You should also have some hanger space.

  

 I rarely use full flaps but they are really nice if you need to lose altitude. Full flaps produce so much drag that they increase the deceleration of the plane on round out so much that you can easily end up below stall speed while still airborne. 

   

 I use one notch of flaps to get off the ground with standard length gear legs of my MKIIIC to get off the ground quickly then retract them right after take off.

  

 I have found that my plane flies the same with one notch of flap with some power on landing as no power (engine failure) and no flaps.

  

 I got my check ride with a GA instructor yesterday in my MKIIIC. He said I should warn GA trained passengers before landing. I guess I scared him with my high angle of decent and low round out. I did some of my best landings ever in spite of 430 lbs. of human cargo. After a half an hour in the air he said he had seen enough and was ready to sign my log book.   

 

  

 Rick Neilsen

 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 

 

 On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 2:03 PM, <Arksey(at)aol.com (Arksey(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote]  Hi group,

     my neighbor purchased a used MK lll after watching me flying around in the firestar enjoying life. I told him he could use my strip and I would get him lined up with a instructer to get his license. I did not use the flaps on the trip as I did know the proper use of them....I was very impressed with the plane and the performace that the rotax 912 80 hp provides. after getting home I went up solo and tried the flaps at low speed and I was impressed at full flaps how the plane handled and it decreased stall speed...so I landed it with full flaps which i thought was a big plus....my question is this. what is the proper use of flaps for take off if any? I think the MK lll performs excellent with the 912 80 hp solo.  I also noticed a lot of difference in trim requiement from dual to solo....another question: at high speed the door lexan pops inward and has to be pushed back out my hand after landing...have any of you had this problem and what is the fix?  Thanks in advance    Jim Swan

   

 Do not archive

FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan

 	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

GA pilots do not know what flying is all  about.

  

 I think helicopter pilots make good Kolb pilots  because the sight picture for approach and landing is very similar.  The  big windscreen is also similar to the excellent visibility of  helicopters.

  

 When I was hauling passengers, I tried to remember  to warn them of the steep approach.  Dennis Souder scared me on my first  mkIII flight, when he let the bottom fall out, and landed next to Homer's hanger  on the taxiway.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

I have to say that I am a GA pilot and I do  know what flying is all about, I haven't got to fly in my Kolb yet, but I have  made quite a few steep approaches with full flaps in a 172. Its all about  airspeed.

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Greg:

  

 That is what I said.

  

 Your steep, full flap 172 approach is more like a  normal mkIII approach, clean.

  

 My favorite landing at Lakeland, with passenger,  was start the approach at 300 feet AGL, over the threshold, 40 mph, with full  flaps, push the nose over to 60 mph or a little less, nudge of a flare, and  touch down turn off in front of the tower landing to the east.  With a 10  to 15 mph headwind, it was near vertical.

  

 Easy to get 2,000 fpm rate of decent and 40 mph  full flaps.

  

 This is a tremendous safety factor, giving the  proficient mkIII pilot the ability to get into tiny forced landing area at slow  speeds and very short ground roll.  

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: flap info for MK lll needed

[quote="gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne"]I have to say that I am a GA pilot and I do  know what flying is all about, I haven't got to fly in my Kolb yet, but I have  made quite a few steep approaches with full flaps in a 172. Its all about  airspeed.

  	  Quote: 	
		     --- 	




Yep. And how wonderfully quickly it goes away when you flare a MKIII, power off, with full flaps. You better be ready to touch down, because it won't be anything like what happens in a C172... 



For those occasions when you forget this little item of trivia, the following is handy for restoring aluminum gear legs to a modicum of straightness... And yes, I do own one... <grin>

http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-shop/pipe-benders/12-ton-hydraulic-pipe-bender-32888.html

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: flap info for MK lll needed

Hello John,



I use a yaw string and the door will pop in at high speed even when it is on the down wind side of a yaw.  I have tested it after I discovered that it will dimple in.  It is on the list of things to deal with this winter.



Jason

MKIII

Portland, OR



 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  My right door will pop in at high speed,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Jason



	




Jason:



Maybe you and Jim S are flying out of yaw trim.



If the door glass that is dimpling is on the up wind side, it may be causing 

the problem.



Wish I could do a quick test flight to see if I could dimple my door.



john h

mkIII

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

 	  Quote: 	
		   I use a yaw string and the door will pop in at high speed even when it is 

 on the down wind side of a yaw.  I have tested it after I discovered that 

 it will dimple in.  It is on the list of things to deal with this winter.



 Jason


	




Jason,



Must be screwed up.  



Maybe flatter than normal bend,



Mine won't dimple.  Don't know why.  Too much hot air inside cockpit?



I'm shutting down and going to bed.



Good night all,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:16 am Post subject: Re: flap info for MK lll needed

Speaking of Full FLaps.....



As I was returning to my home airport after my flight Monday morning, the prevailing winds at pattern altitude were favoring my planned use of runway 6. Since I was approaching from the SE I flew the cross wind leg a little off the departure end of rwy 6 with the intention of turning to left downwind for rwy 6. Once I got close enough to see the windsock hanging straight down, I decided I might as well land on 24 since its threshold was just to my left about 100 yards and 800 feet below me. I turned final pulled on full flaps (first time ever on landing) and pushed the nose down to Vfe (top of white arc) which is 70 mph in the Slingshot.



That was a fun and fast descent with plenty of energy left over for flare and the touchdown was nice and easy. I've flown only two other airplanes that can do this maneuver reliably and with confidence at such a steep descent rate. A Zenith CH-701 and a short wing (20') Titan Tornado. One has full length flaperons like the Slingshot and the other huge barn-door flaps that extend to 40 degrees, like the MkIII. I really really really like my Slingshot but Kolbs are not the only airplanes in which this sort of steep approach can be made, but doing them gracefully is an acquired skill. I've only got about 32 hours time in my Slingshot since I bought it last August so I'm still learning its tricks. 



That said, I normally don't use any flap(eron) at all during take-off nor landing, but it is very nice to have this capability when it is needed or desired.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: Re: flap info for MK lll needed

Hey Mr Jim,



Just want to second what John H and Preacher Pike said.



You may have seen a few videos of my little Nauga strip.



Just in case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szp1waiP4a0



That little strip has taught me a lot about flying my Kolb that I would have never learned otherwise.  One of my challenges was to try to land as short as possible.  On-going challenge with John H.



I was making full-flap, power off, super steep approaches.  Like John H said, realized I was loosing elevator authority in the rather abrupt flare.  Kinda like a bird landing on a wire and missing the wire.  Sometimes results were amazingly short landing rolls.  If everything not just perfect in a span of a few seconds, spent a little time wandering up and down.  Time you don't have as the energy bleeds off so very quickly.  What Preacher Pike is referring to.



For me, I'm getting the best results (shortest landing) with full flaps and just a hint of power for elevator authority in the middle of the flare.



Got to be careful when no power available and squeezing it in a tight spot.  Been there, done that, bent the plane!



What the temp there?  Heat index 105 here today. I may come visit.

_________________
Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:43 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

Greg,

 A lot of us on the list come from GA background,and I believe most of us would agree that our experience in heavier aircraft did not prepare us adequately for the performance of high drag,low inertia, light sport aircraft.The list is a good source of info.

   G.Aman 

    

  

     

  

    

     

  

     

  

    --

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: flap info for MK lll needed

As another Kolber converted from GA, I had the list to thank for my zero damage first landing in my MkIII.BB

do not archive



On 9, Jun 2010, at 9:42 AM, zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]Greg,

 A lot of us on the list come from GA background,and I believe most of us would agree that our experience in heavier aircraft did not prepare us adequately for the performance of high drag,low inertia, light sport aircraft.The list is a good source of info.

   G.Aman 

    

  

     

  

    

     

  

     

  

    --

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