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Allen Gandy

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Huntsville, Alabama

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

Recently bought a 6 yr old RANS with 912ULS engine (~300 hrs), we are 3rd owner.  Last owner was using Castrol GPS 20W50.  

What are current Rotax recommended oils?  

Are there issues/considerations in changing from Castrol to some other petroleum based oil?  

Allen Gandy

   

  

    [quote][b]

bob(at)fly-ul.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

On 05:37 AM 6/14/2010, Gandy, Allen (IS) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  What are current Rotax recommended oils?


	


http://legacy.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/serviceinfo/si-912-016.pdf

--

Bob Comperini

e-mail: bob(at)fly-ul.com

WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:36 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

Hi Allen,



There are better oils to use other than Castorol and Rotax doesn't recommend some of the Castorol oils. It also needs to be a motorcycle oil because of the additives for the gearbox operation. This engine like motorcycles share the oil between the gearbox and the engine. Unless you absolutely can't find a motorcycle oil then a regular car oil shouldn't be used. It doesn't have the additives for the gearbox. 

It kind of depends a little on the fuel you use. If you are using 91 octane unleaded auto fuel then you can use a good full synthetic. Such as Mobile One Racing 4T a 10-40w, Amsoil motorcycle oil 10-40w or 20-50w since it is summer time temps or Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 a 10-40w a semi synthetic or Golden Spectro 4 or Honda G4 oil. The Honda oil would be my last pick.

If you have to use 100LL with all the lead you need to use a semi synthetic so it will suspend the lead and will drain out during the changing of the oil. It all won't all drain out, but if you use a full synthetic with 100LL then the lead tends to fall out of solution and settle in areas of your engine. So the Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 a semi synthetic would be a good pick. It is not recommended to use a straight dino base oil because under certain conditions it doesn't offer the higher quality protection as does a synthetic.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

 	  Allen Gandy wrote: 	
		  Recently bought a 6 yr old RANS with 912ULS engine (~300 hrs), we are 3rd owner.  Last owner was using Castrol GPS 20W50.  

What are current Rotax recommended oils?  

Are there issues/considerations in changing from Castrol to some other petroleum based oil?  

Allen Gandy

	




Lots and lots of good and bad fights on the various lists about this issue. 



My .02.  The only _hard_ requirements on the oil you use:

- API service grade (has to be at least API SG as noted in the service instruction)

- viscosity (has to be correct for your expected range of operating temps).

- synthetic vs. semi-synthetic (the use of leaded gas like 100LL determines which choice you make here).

- not _specifically non-recommended_ by Rotax (i.e. if Rotax has identified a particular oil formulation that they _dont_ want you to use).



If it meets these requirements, the rest is gravy. If you can find an oil that Rotax _recommends_, definitely go with that, but don't worry about it if you have to use a substitute that meets the HARD requirements.



I personally use the Aeroshell but have used Valvoline 10W40 (API SJ) in the past with fine results so far. 



Now all you gotta do is ask what oil filter to use, and the fun will _really_ begin 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Goodone

Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 49

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

If you don't have a slipper clutch the Honda motorcycle oil with molybdenum can be considered. This is a very high quality semi-synthetic product. I have been told by several people very involved with Rotex engine training and repair in this country that this is a great product that Rotex will never suggest since they consider Honda a major competitor. My 80 hp 912 UL has lived on the stuff for about 600 hrs now and is in great shape.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

They have recommend the Honda oil in a Rotax class. This is one of the questions that gets ask quite frequently.  oil usage.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:37 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

i am in need of oil advice too . you can follow some of the more recent post by me. the latest is a report from my ame that the gearbox is toast after 400hrs. i took it in for inspection of a leak in the front seal. the history that i can get to is 1992 to 99 engine was in a box in georgia  usa, not sure if pickled proper or not. then installed in a 701 in canada and used for 200hrs on amsoil semi 10/40 . then i purchased airplane and  used amsoil for a short time then switched to the mobil mx4  as a rotax recommended oil.   baced on the parts list i was given the case is fine  the rest not so good. worn parts and gear tooth galling. my next question is if gearbox is so bad ????? about the engine. the oil nad filter changed faithfully every 50 hrs.  what oil to use? what oil not to use?



update 7/19/10: flying again.  new gearbox is a great improvment. coutd not believe the smoothnes and quiet of the new box. gradual wear is hard to recognize. only thing saved was the case. the shime and washer were very bad and the clutch washers were showing  wear. bearing seemed fine but not a big expense to do now.  the gear wear points pointed out by the ame were hard to see with the naked eye. ... but have "0" time box now. the vdo oil pres sender ( see prev posts about  this)  craped out again after 10 hrs.   i now have a new mechanical unit installed  at a lower cost then the replacement elec. sender that was going to take 6 weeks to get here anyway.

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

Last edited by dashwood on Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:15 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

read this about oils then you'll know why certain oils are better than others.

You can't go wrong with the oils listed in the previous post.

Oil Comparison.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Oil Comparison.pdf

Filesize:

2.01 MB

Downloaded:

442 Time(s)

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:45 am Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

Ross:

  

 As from my reading on AMSOIL they are ALL 100% Synthetic.  They are NOT advertised as a 50/50 blend.

  

 Many - Many years ago I did a study on model RC engines and ... Long story short --- 100% Synthetic is NOT the way to go.  Synthetic is great for lubrication but that is only half the story.  What oil MUST do is REMOVE the HEAT.  

  Your petroleum based oils do that NOT the Synthetics.

  

 You also want to use something that is 20W 50.

  

 There has been millions of words written about automotive oil in aviation engines... I have heard some Good and Bad reports.

 The only thing that holds some... Not much water is:  An aviation oil is designed with more ingredients to take care of the EP range of the oils.  Aviation engines run at 65% to 75% power 95% of the time.  Automotive engines run at 15% to 20% power 95% of the time.  Much Less Load on automotive. 

 

 So, that is where I believe the problem could have originated from.

  

 Barry

 

 

 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:37 AM, dashwood <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com (dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com (dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com)>

 

i am in need of oil advice too . you can follow some of the more recent post by me. the latest is a report from my ame that the gearbox is toast after 400hrs. i took it in for inspection of a leak in the front seal. the history that i can get to is 1992 to 99 engine was in a box in georgia  usa, not sure if pickled proper or not. then installed and used for 200hrs on amsoil semi 10/40 . then i purchased airplane and  used amsoil for a short time then switched to the mobil mx4  as a rotax recommended oil.   baced on the parts list i was given the case is fine  the rest not so good. worn parts and gear tooth galling. my next question is if gearbox is so bad ????? about the engine.  what oil to use? what oil not to use?

 

--------

Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 398tt





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[b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

Barry,



Are you sure you want to offer opinions on the care of $20k aircraft

engines different from the factory, the service centers, and experienced

mechanics based on your experience in rc engines.  Not many RC engines

have water cooled heads.



Synthetic oils are preferred in Rotax 900 series engines in general 

and should not be used in the specific case of using AV Gas with lead.



Rotax adds and deletes oils to the Service Letter based on testing

and also on promotional/competitive reasons.  Recently Mobil One for

Rotaxwas introduced as a synthetic which does not sludge in the

presence of tetraethyl lead.  At SnF this year Rotax was highly promoting

this oil as the best available.

_________________
Ira N224XS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

Full synthetic or semi synthetics oils for a 4 stroke engine are well above a standard dino oil for performance and high stress situations. This has been demonstrated by many institutions. Personally I would never put a dino oil in a high performance, high compression, close tolerance and gearbox sharing situation engine like the Rotax. As a Rotax mechanic I tear into enough of them and seen enough pictures from Rotax themselves to keep me in the synthetics and out of the pure dino oils.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

daberti(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

The other factor in Rotax recommendations is foaming.  With the average

system using only 3 liters of oil, foamed oil can easily enter the

pressurized side of the engine. Air compresses, fluids don't. Air in the

lifters causes collapsed lifters, loose pushrods that can then get bent and

hammered rocker arms. Air in the main galleys results in poor oil flow to

cam bearings and mains.  Foam in the oil causes reduced pressure indications

and a jumpy needle on an analog gage. 



I prefer the Mobil Racing (MX4T) but use Penzoil when stuck using 100LL such

as flying in the western states where the autogas is unavailable or just

inconvenient to transport.



Dave  



--

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

the oil analysis posted puts amsoil at the top of the list.... sponsored by amsoil ..go figure. the mobil oil in both 40  scored very low in the foaming category and reasonably high in most others. i wonder if this is as good an oil for th 9XX for this reason. the text indicates that anti foam capabilities is one of the most important factors in gear wear.

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:19 am Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

Or...Or you could switch to Aeroshell plus 4 oil. It is made specifically for the 912 Rotax engine. It is a semi synthetic that can be used with auto fuel or avgas. Problem solved! That's all I use now. Lockwood uses it in their training aircraft and has it available. LEAF also carries it.

                                  Dick Maddux

                                  Fox 4,912UL

                                  Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

That article is a few years old, but it was done by an independent tester. I was hoping that everyone one would take the article as an educational tool to see what the additives are and what they do. There have been a few changes and other oils added. If you use 100LL off and on then Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 would be a good addition to this group being a semi synthetic. They had a foaming issue at the beginning, but have taken care of that. The Rotax with the small oil tank can't tolerate high foaming oils. 

Dave is exactly right about what can happen if you allow the oil level to get too low and or have a high foaming oil. The help combat oil foaming, which was worse many years ago, Rotax raised the oil level using a new dip stick by 30%. The old dip stick had a round handle where all the new ones are more square looking and the flat oil level zone is higher up the stick. This generally affected engine that are around the 5-6 year old and older engines.

Oil is the life blood of any engine so I don't scrimp here. I do my oil changes still at 50 hrs and not 100 hrs. If you do oil changes like this, and stay away from 100LL, except when you travel occasionally, then there is no reason you can't see 3000 plus hrs on a engine. Use 100LL all the time and you'll be doing a top end at 1000 hrs. and a gearbox sooner.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

AMEN Roger!.  Aren't you tired of Tucson.  Why not move to the Austin area 

so I can hang out with you?



Pete

ex Pima County Deputy Sheriff

---

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

I'm going to have to correct myself here.



I said Mobil One, but I was meaning to say Aeroshell.

Mobil One was so last year 



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: 912ULS Recommended Oil

I think this thread started with symptoms of gear box component wear, and is 

focused only on oil used. It is my understanding (from a Rotax service 

class) that gear box wear could very  well be the result of running with 

less than balanced carbs and or lots of excessive low idle running. The 

thought being that rough running, vibration, is the cause of early gearbox 

wear.



Is it possible that the first several hundred hours on this engine's gearbox 

included less than ideal carb balance and idle?



Kevin

914 Europa

---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

 	  kevann(at)gotsky.com wrote: 	
		  I think this thread started with symptoms of gear box component wear, and is 

focused only on oil used. It is my understanding (from a Rotax service 

class) that gear box wear could very  well be the result of running with 

less than balanced carbs and or lots of excessive low idle running. The 

thought being that rough running, vibration, is the cause of early gearbox 

wear.



Is it possible that the first several hundred hours on this engine's gearbox 

included less than ideal carb balance and idle?



Kevin

914 Europa

--- 	




This one actually started with a direct "what oil should I use?", so straightaway I went and got the popcorn. You know it's going to be entertaining when that question comes up 



As for gearbox wear, I'd put type of oil used near the bottom of the list of suspects and instead suspect poor carb balance and etc. like you say. 



Also, don't forget these gigantic props a lot of guys put on these things, with these mile long extensions, etc. Remember the MOI spec on the 912 box is the same as 2-stroke C-box (6000 kg/cm2, IIRC), so you can't really get away with those 200lb monsters on the 912 any more than with the C box... I'm sure that's a culprit a lot of the time too in addition to rough or too slow of an idle, etc...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: 912ULS Recommended Oil

As far as gearbox wear I'm with Kevin and Lucien.

 Oils are like Chevy's and Ford's. You may like one not the other, but they both get you there.



Kevin,



I lived in Houston back in the mid 70's for 2 years and went back to Tucson. Too much mud, rain, mosquitoes and prejudice for me. I'm an outdoor boy and the first three made it hard to have fun.  I forgot to mention and no mountains.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

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