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Help with elevator cable

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frankf(at)flying-models.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

Hi:



Bought a used, high time (740 hours) Firestar back in January, and have 

been attending to the usual maintenance issues, all non-airworthy items. 

Flew the plane three times so far and it is a real delight compared to 

the Quicksilvers I flew for about 12 years.



During the preflight check before the fourth flight Friday (6/11), I 

hear a scraping noise under the seat during the preflight check of the 

controls. Thought at first it was something under the seat rubbing 

against the cable, but nothing there. The visible part of the cable 

looked and felt okay. Discovered that one of the elevator cables was 

slightly frayed just aft of the pulley. Couldn't see it, but could feel 

it. So, no more flying until the cables are replaced.



Called Kolb and got the part numbers for all the cable components but I 

don't have a set plans, just the building instructions. Nothing much in 

there about the procedure for re-installing the cables, so I'm asking 

for some guidance. I do know they need to be taut, and each cable must 

stay that way when the stick is moved forward and back. Also know that 

one cable can't go slack when the other is taut.



Also need to know if the economy swaging tools (the screw type) can be 

used easily when doing this. Welcome your insights.



Frank Fanelli

New Jersey

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

Frank  

   

Can't help with plans....   but seems you have one to copy.   If you tie a small rope to one end and pull it through...   make a new cable the same length as the old. Then pull back in place with the rope to  reinstall.    

   

The only problem with this is if there had been any major stretch to the cable.  In which case you would make it a bit shorter,   you could check for this by seeing how much adjustment is in the turnbuckle. Middle of the adjustment make the same length,,,  adjustment all the way in,,, make it a bit shorter, so you will have room to adjust again.  

   

The economy swaging tool seem to work ok for me.  

   

Boyd Young  

MKIII 640 hours  

Utah  

   

   

   

   

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.  

   
	


   

Called Kolb and got the part numbers for all the cable components but I   

don't have a set plans, just the building instructions. Nothing much in   

there about the procedure for re-installing the cables, so I'm asking   

for some guidance. I do know they need to be taut, and each cable must   

stay that way when the stick is moved forward and back. Also know that   

one cable can't go slack when the other is taut.  

   

Also need to know if the economy swaging tools (the screw type) can be   

used easily when doing this. Welcome your insights.  

   

Frank Fanelli  

       [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Help with elevator cable

 	  frankf(at)flying-models.c wrote: 	
		  Hi:

<snip>

Also need to know if the economy swaging tools (the screw type) can be 

used easily when doing this. Welcome your insights.

Frank Fanelli

New Jersey 	




Yep, one like this is all you need. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/no2swageit.php

Doesn't hurt to practice a bit with some extra cable and waste a few sleeves if you've not done any before. IMO, a box end wrench is easier than a socket and ratchet. Run one bolt down a bit, then the other, then back, etc. Clamping the tool in a vise while you are doing things also helps. If you are having trouble keeping the wires the tension and position you want, small split bolt grounding clamps are useful to keep everything in position and won't hurt your cables. 

http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=7768

I like to use two sleeves per thimble and also cut the ends off the thimbles first, makes them fit better and they will not get loose.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Help with elevator cable

Frank, it's good that you noticed the fraying before it got worse. It's possible the reason it got worn was because the cable got out of the pulley if you have one. When Kolb came out with the Teflon rings, I thought they had cheapened the flight controls, but now think this is better than the pulley system with less wear and resistance. I have used the screw type of swaging tool. It works well and you may want to apply some oil to the screws before tightening it. The up elevator cable is tighter than the bottom one. Both of them tend to "clang" in the fuse tube on rough grass. This is called "the Kolb clank". If they are too tight, it can be hard on the bolts and turnbuckle. Be sure to safety wire the turnbuckle, of course.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

frankf(at)flying-models.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: Help with elevator cable

On 6/14/2010 2:52 PM, b young wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		                st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->             

Frank   

    

Can't help with plans....   but seems you have one to copy.   If you tie a small rope to one end and pull it through...   make a new cable the same length as the old. Then pull back in place with the rope to  reinstall.     

    

The only problem with this is if there had been any major stretch to the cable.  In which case you would make it a bit shorter,   you could check for this by seeing how much adjustment is in the turnbuckle. Middle of the adjustment make the same length,,,  adjustment all the way in,,, make it a bit shorter, so you will have room to adjust again.   

    

The economy swaging tool seem to work ok for me.   

    

Boyd Young   

MKIII 640 hours   

Utah   

    

    

    

    

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.   

    
	


    

Called Kolb and got the part numbers for all the cable components but I      

don't have a set plans, just the building instructions. Nothing much in      

there about the procedure for re-installing the cables, so I'm asking    

for some guidance. I do know they need to be taut, and each cable must    

stay that way when the stick is moved forward and back. Also know that    

one cable can't go slack when the other is taut.   

    

Also need to know if the economy swaging tools (the screw type) can be    

used easily when doing this. Welcome your insights.   

    

Frank Fanelli   

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
   	
 Boyd:

 

 Thanks for the quick reply. You're right. That's what I was going to do. Just wasn't sure if there was a guide of some kind inside the boom tube. Also wasn't sure if there was a spec for cable length on the plans. I deal with radio control planes and the larger ones have gone to cable systems for the rudders especially and know that the cable need to be equally tensioned, the same situation with the Firestar

 

 Well, ordered the bits and pieces today and hopefully will get into it by and during the weekend. Those first three flights to get the feel of the plane definitely whet my appetite for a lot more flying.

 

 Frank Fanelli

     [quote][b]

frankf(at)flying-models.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: Help with elevator cable

On 6/15/2010 9:35 AM, Ralph B wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Frank, it's good that you noticed the fraying before it got worse. I have used the screw type of swedge tool. It works well and you may want to apply some oil to the screws before tightening it.



 Ralph



 --------

 Ralph B

 Original Firestar 447

 N91493 E-AB

 1000 hours

 23 years flying it

 Kolbra 912UL

 N20386

 2 years flying it

 120 hrs





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301284#301284





    

Hi Ralph
	




Found a swage tool in Home Depot that's 18 inches long instead of the 26 

sold by Aircraft Spruce and others for $250 plus. Couldn't afford that 

for just two cables so the Home Depot swage was only 26 bucks and it 

will handle the 3/32 cable and two other larger sizes. I'm sure it will 

work.



By the way, you're a high time Firestar pilot. Any tips about what other 

things to look for on a high time plane that aren't obvious or visual? 

Funny this happened with the cable. When I bought the plane my first 

concern was what I couldn't see in the boom tube, and wondered about the 

condition of the cables inside the boom since the plane was high time 

and there was nothing in the plane's records that indicated any 

maintenance on them.



Frank Fanelli

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

Frank, Since you have no way on knowing how much, if any, stretch has taken place with your old cables, don't try to duplicate them. Instead, fully fabricate the end of the cable that attaches to the control surface end and use a cable clamp to set the turnbuckle end (leave two threads showing on the turnbuckle to allow for tensioning). When you are satisfied that all is correct remove the cable from the aircraft and finish the fabrication on the bench. If you've not made cables before you might want to review FAA Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B, "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices Aircraft Inspection, Repair and Alterations", chapter 7-148, page 7-33. Notice that it shows only a single sleeve and how to swage it properly. Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.

 Last, be sure and get yourself an inspection gauge so you'll know you have the correct amount of compression on the sleeve. See:

http://versales.com/ns/nicopress/gogauge.html

 [/url]as one source.

Rick Girard



On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Frank Fanelli <frankf(at)flying-models.com (frankf(at)flying-models.com)> wrote:

 [quote]           On 6/14/2010 2:52 PM, b young wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		                       

Frank   

    

Can't help with plans....   but seems you have one to copy.   If you tie a small rope to one end and pull it through...   make a new cable the same length as the old. Then pull back in place with the rope to  reinstall.     

    

The only problem with this is if there had been any major stretch to the cable.  In which case you would make it a bit shorter,   you could check for this by seeing how much adjustment is in the turnbuckle. Middle of the adjustment make the same length,,,  adjustment all the way in,,, make it a bit shorter, so you will have room to adjust again.   

    

The economy swaging tool seem to work ok for me.   

    

Boyd Young   

MKIII 640 hours   

Utah   

    

    

    

    

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.   

    
	


    

Called Kolb and got the part numbers for all the cable components but I      

don't have a set plans, just the building instructions. Nothing much in      

there about the procedure for re-installing the cables, so I'm asking    

for some guidance. I do know they need to be taut, and each cable must    

stay that way when the stick is moved forward and back. Also know that    

one cable can't go slack when the other is taut.   

    

Also need to know if the economy swaging tools (the screw type) can be    

used easily when doing this. Welcome your insights.   

    

Frank Fanelli   

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
   	
 Boyd:

 

 Thanks for the quick reply. You're right. That's what I was going to do. Just wasn't sure if there was a guide of some kind inside the boom tube. Also wasn't sure if there was a spec for cable length on the plans. I deal with radio control planes and the larger ones have gone to cable systems for the rudders especially and know that the cable need to be equally tensioned, the same situation with the Firestar

 

 Well, ordered the bits and pieces today and hopefully will get into it by and during the weekend. Those first three flights to get the feel of the plane definitely whet my appetite for a lot more flying.

 

 Frank Fanelli

      	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Help with elevator cable

 	  rickofudall wrote: 	
		  

Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination. 

Rick Girard

[b] 	




Back in 1979, I built my first motorized hang glider, it was a Quicksilver, built it from plans, and my wife sewed the sails on her sewing machine in our living room. I took a Yamaha dirt bike engine, sawed off the transmission and welded a big flat washer to the primary gear where I bolted on a direct drive prop - which is still hanging on the wall of my workshop.



At that time North American Rockwell had an aircraft factory at Albany, GA, they built Thrushes and Aero Commander 112's & 114's there. A friend of mine worked there, and was helping with the project, and when it came time to fabricate some cables, he checked out one of the factory's big bolt cutter type nicopress tools. But not a gauge. Hey, it was the same tool the factory used every day, it would be good, right?



We made up a couple test swages on a short length of cable and they looked pretty good, and it occurred to me to wonder how strong they were. So I hooked one thimble over a nail in the garage roof, stuck a screwdriver through the thimble on the other end and attempted a chin up. (I never claimed to be smart...) The cable pulled through the swaged sleeve and (naturally) I smashed myself in the bridge of the nose with a screwdriver blade held crosswise as hard as I could. 



He took that swage tool back, got a different one, and I have double sleeved ever since. Yes, I know what AC 43-13 says, I have one on my shelf, I also know that sleeves are cheap, and if you practice a bit, double sleeves will turn out ok. If not, I also know how to split a sleeve with a sharp cold chisel and redo that end. Or throw it away and start over, which is better than having a cable pull out, like happened on a local Kitfox a few years back. Fortunately it was only the single sleeved cable that went to his tailwheel for steering, and although the groundloop nearly totaled it, he walked away, along with his little daughter who was riding with him. Interesting that I was the EAA Technical Counselor who looked at his airplane, and I mentioned to him that all his cables were single sleeved. He said that was what AC 43-13 called for, and we left it at that.



Also, you might want to take a look at page 122 of Tony Bingelis' book "The Sportplane Builder," the drawing at the bottom of the page shows how to  - in his words - "use double sleeve application for extra strength."

Tony's old hangar tales are good enough for me.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:22 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

all swages were not created equal....

BB

do not archive

On 16, Jun 2010, at 1:35 PM, Richard Pike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 rickofudall wrote:

> 

> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination. 

> Rick Girard

> [b]

 Back in 1979, I built my first motorized hang glider, it was a Quicksilver, built it from plans, and my wife sewed the sails on her sewing machine in our living room. I took a Yamaha dirt bike engine, sawed off the transmission and welded a big flat washer to the primary gear where I bolted on a direct drive prop - which is still hanging on the wall of my workshop.

 At that time North American Rockwell had an aircraft factory at Albany, GA, they built Thrushes and Aero Commander 112's & 114's there. A friend of mine worked there, and was helping with the project, and when it came time to fabricate some cables, he checked out one of the factory's big bolt cutter type nicopress tools. But not a gauge. Hey, it was the same tool the factory used every day, it would be good, right?

 We made up a couple test swages on a short length of cable and they looked pretty good, and it occurred to me to wonder how strong they were. So I hooked one thimble over a nail in the garage roof, stuck a screwdriver through the thimble on the other end and attempted a chin up. (I never claimed to be smart...) The cable pulled through the swaged sleeve and (naturally) I smashed myself in the bridge of the nose with a screwdriver blade held crosswise as hard as I could. 

 He took that swage tool back, got a different one, and I have double sleeved ever since. Yes, I know what AC 43-13 says, I have one on my shelf, I also know that sleeves are cheap, and if you practice a bit, double sleeves will turn out ok. If not, I also know how to split a sleeve with a sharp cold chisel and redo that end. Or throw it away and start over, which is better than having a cable pull out, like happened on a local Kitfox a few years back. Fortunately it was only the single sleeved cable that went to his tailwheel for steering, and although the groundloop nearly totaled it, he walked away, along with his little daughter who was riding with him. Interesting that I was the EAA Technical Counselor who looked at his airplane, and I mentioned to him that all his cables were single sleeved. He said that was what AC 43-13 called for, and we left it at that.

 Also, you might want to take a look at page 122 of Tony Bingelis' book "The Sportplane Builder," the drawing at the bottom of the page shows how to  - in his words - "use double sleeve application for extra strength."

 Tony's old hangar tales are good enough for me.

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=301436#301436

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

>> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie 

down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or 

safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by 

introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Rick Girard


	




Rick G/Gang:



I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection, especially 

3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .



Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.



I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.  Used an 

8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.  Single sleeve connections 

always failed before the double sleeve connections.  The results convinced 

me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do.  I still do.



BTW:  All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with the same 

GO-NO GO gauge.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Help with elevator cable

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  >> 

<snip>

I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.  Used an 

8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.  <snip>

john h

mkIII 	




Beats the heck out of pulling down on a piece of metal 2' above yer head...  



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Do Not Archive

frankf(at)flying-models.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: Help with elevator cable

John:

What's your recommendation for a swaging tool? I couldn't justify 

spending over $100 for a swaging tool and the economy bolt press looked 

somewhat unwieldy. So I found an 18-inch long swaging tool at Home Depot 

that handles a few sleeve sizes including the 3/32 I need for the 7x19 

elevator cable. Do you think it will be strong enough? I guess the go-no 

go gauge will be the final judge.

Frank Fanelli

On 6/16/2010 3:24 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to 

 tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the 

 strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to 

 make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.

>> Rick Girard

 Rick G/Gang:

 I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection, 

 especially 3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .

 Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.

 I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.  

 Used an 8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.  Single sleeve 

 connections always failed before the double sleeve connections.  The 

 results convinced me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do.  

 I still do.

 BTW:  All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with 

 the same GO-NO GO gauge.

 john h

 mkIII

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: Help with elevator cable

> What's your recommendation for a swaging tool? I couldn't justify

 	  Quote: 	
		   spending over $100 for a swaging tool and the economy bolt press looked 

 somewhat unwieldy. So I found an 18-inch long swaging tool at Home Depot 

 that handles a few sleeve sizes including the 3/32 I need for the 7x19 

 elevator cable. Do you think it will be strong enough? I guess the go-no 

 go gauge will be the final judge.



 Frank Fanelli


	




Give Travis a call at Kolb Aircraft.  He can get you one in the mail.



GO-NO GO gauge is critical.



Make sure the nicroprees sleeve is inserted into the tool correctly.  They 

can be inserted 90 deg out and give the inexperienced cable maker the 

impression it is the correctly positioned to press.  I did just that on my 

Ultrastar in 1984.  Every connection was the same.  Every connection had the 

potential to fail.  Brother Jim picked up my mistake before I had a chance 

to kill myself.  I can do it correctly now.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: Help with elevator cable

At 01:35 PM 6/16/2010, Richard Pike wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  .....he checked out one of the factory's big bolt cutter type nicopress tools. But not a gauge. Hey, it was the same tool the factory used every day, it would be good, right? 	


 I'll go so far as to say the gauge is even more important than the swaging tool.  Regardless of what kind of tool you have (I use the cheap bolt type), checking the swages with a gauge is an absolute MUST!!!



 However, if you don't have a gauge, you can make the same check with an accurate micrometer or dial caliper if you have the max size specs.  I have a copy somewhere; can't find it at the moment but a web search should turn it up.



 A properly installed swage should hold the full rated strength of the cable.  Using two sleeves adds nothing, unless one of them is not installed properly.  Still, it can't hurt, as long as the short end is very slightly looser than the primary cable.  Otherwise it can cause a bending load that may actually weaken the connection.



 -Dana

 

 --

  The gene pool could use a little chlorine.    [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

John, As long as we are dealing in anecdotal evidence I can count personally at least ten different aircraft I have flown, and four that I have built that used cable structural bracing and all had but a single compression sleeve to terminate those cables. Not one ever slipped or distorted in any way no matter how badly I abused them.  Then there is the experience of Wills Wing, who have manufactured literally thousands of hang gliders using the standards set out by the National Telephone Supply Co, the inventor of the Nicopress process. To my knowledge, in almost 40 years they have not had a single failure reported due to the Nico sleeve failing in any way. [url=http://versales.com/ns/nicopress/inst32pg4.html][/url]A single sleeve properly installed is as strong as the cable itself, that you have applied an 8,000 lb winch to a cable with a 960 lb breaking strength is as you put it "a very unscientific test". Until someone comes forward WITH a scientific test that disproves both the manufacturer of the process and the guidance given to EVERY certified mechanic by the FAA I will continue to contend that the only thing a second Nico sleeve does is introduce the prospect of a reject able cable assembly.

 



Rick Girard

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do"





On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:24 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> 

 

 

 >> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.

   	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		   Rick Girard

 	
	
 

 



 Rick G/Gang:

 

 I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection, especially 3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .

 

 Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.

 

 I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.  Used an 8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.  Single sleeve connections always failed before the double sleeve connections.  The results convinced me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do.  I still do.

  

 BTW:  All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with the same GO-NO GO gauge.

 

 john h

 mkIII 



 

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 http://forums.matronics.com

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

Frank, I bought a model 32 VC VG tool back when they were less than $35 in the early seventies and it's still giving good service. The bolt tool works well for a few swages, but is unwieldy beyond that. You might check with your local EAA chapter and see if a member has either the 32 VC VG or the 64CGMP tool. 



Rick Girard



On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Frank Fanelli <frankf(at)flying-models.com (frankf(at)flying-models.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Frank Fanelli <frankf(at)flying-models.com (frankf(at)flying-models.com)>

 

 John:

 

 What's your recommendation for a swaging tool? I couldn't justify spending over $100 for a swaging tool and the economy bolt press looked somewhat unwieldy. So I found an 18-inch long swaging tool at Home Depot that handles a few sleeve sizes including the 3/32 I need for the 7x19 elevator cable. Do you think it will be strong enough? I guess the go-no go gauge will be the final judge.

  

 Frank Fanelli

 

 On 6/16/2010 3:24 PM, John Hauck wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 

 >> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.

   	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		   Rick Girard

 	
	
 

 

 Rick G/Gang:

 

 I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection, especially 3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .

 

 Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.

 

 I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.  Used an 8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.  Single sleeve connections always failed before the double sleeve connections.  The results convinced me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do.  I still do.

  

 BTW:  All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with the same GO-NO GO gauge.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Help with elevator cable

Does anyone, instead of swaging, use the old cable splicing technique per

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/reference/cable-splicing ? I can recall in an earlier life as a young apprentice having to do it this way. Sure was a strong bond with virtually no chance of it coming loose. On the contrary, it held tighter under tension. Swaging would be much quicker but splicing looks better (subjective).   Just curious.

David.

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: Help with elevator cable

FWIW: I recently used a piece of 3/32 cable to make a tow-cable to pull my kaput VW home.  I used one nico sleeve and didn’t take any particular care swaging it.  While the cable was easily strong enough to pull the car, it broke during after one of those slack times when things get tight very quickly.  The loop at the swaged end broke – the swage held.  It appears the swage portion is stronger than the cable itself.  But … we always used 2 swages, if for no other reason than it provides a convenient way to tidy up the end of the cable.  

   

Dennis  

         

  

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard

 Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:00 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Help with elevator cable  

  

   

John, As long as we are dealing in anecdotal evidence I can count personally at least ten different aircraft I have flown, and four that I have built that used cable structural bracing and all had but a single compression sleeve to terminate those cables. Not one ever slipped or distorted in any way no matter how badly I abused them.     

Then there is the experience of Wills Wing, who have manufactured literally thousands of hang gliders using the standards set out by the National Telephone Supply Co, the inventor of the Nicopress process. To my knowledge, in almost 40 years they have not had a single failure reported due to the Nico sleeve failing in any way.    

[url=http://versales.com/ns/nicopress/inst32pg4.html][/url]A single sleeve properly installed is as strong as the cable itself, that you have applied an 8,000 lb winch to a cable with a 960 lb breaking strength is as you put it "a very unscientific test". Until someone comes forward WITH a scientific test that disproves both the manufacturer of the process and the guidance given to EVERY certified mechanic by the FAA I will continue to contend that the only thing a second Nico sleeve does is introduce the prospect of a reject able cable assembly.  

    

   

    

Rick Girard  

    

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do"    

   

    

     

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:24 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:  

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>    



 

 

 >> Despite old hangar tales to the contrary using a second sleeve to tie down the loose end of the cable does absolutely nothing for the strength or safety of the cable and only offers the opportunity to make a bad cable by introducing bubbles and twists into the termination.   	  Quote: 	
		    

Rick Girard  	
  

   

  

Rick G/Gang:

 

 I will continue to use two sleeves on each cable connection, especially 3/32" and smaller, 7X19 cable .

 

 Smaller the cable, finer the wire, means less area for grip.

 

 I did very unscientific pull tests with 3/32" 7X19 many years ago.  Used an 8,000 lb winch on my old Toyota Land Cruiser.  Single sleeve connections always failed before the double sleeve connections.  The results convinced me to keep on doing what Homer Kolb told me to do.  I still do.

 

 BTW:  All sleeves were squeezed with the same tool and checked with the same GO-NO GO gauge.

 

 john h

 mkIII       



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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: Help with elevator cable

<Does anyone, instead of swaging, use the old cable splicing technique per

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/reference/cable-splicing ? I can recall in an earlier life as a young apprentice having to do it this way. Sure was a strong bond with virtually no chance of it coming loose. On the contrary, it held tighter under tension. Swaging would be much quicker but splicing looks better (subjective).   Just curious.

David.>



At Northrop part of the course was to make this fixture (and the poking awl) by hand, using nothing but hacksaw, file, and hand die.

The thimble fit in the little base receiver and the block went in a vise.  We then had to do one splice, also for a grade.

If you want to correctly restore an antique airplane this is the only way.

BB

(prefers swage)

[img]cid:D89CEC13-FF02-4C1D-A41D-A87B01823127(at)domain.invalid[/img]



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