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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:57 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Just curious.  I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide they could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere.  One customer tells me he can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours.  Of course, the guy works out of his truck.  The other customer is 3 hours away and I can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.

Questions:

How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?  

If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being charged?

Is your annual a fixed cost?



   



          [quote][b]

ronmillmancpa(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I pay $60 an hour for annuals.

 Takes 9 hours with me assisting.

 Ron.

 [quote]   ---

rdp123(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Gary, my last couple of annuals were at Torrence airport (13.9 miles). 



He charges $650 plus parts. He includes relining brakes and even installed a new exhaust system in that flat price. It took one day to complete.

Auburn is 322.3 miles each way with hotel, car rental, meals, etc.  I think you can understand why I have a standard annual done locally.

Rick



On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just curious.  I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide they could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere.  One customer tells me he can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours.  Of course, the guy works out of his truck.  The other customer is 3 hours away and I can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.

Questions:

How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?  

If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being charged?

Is your annual a fixed cost?



 	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


 [quote][b]

JHOSLER(at)epri.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

All:  

   

Just as calibration (or maybe I need to be) my last 2 annuals here in North   Carolina cost approximately $2800 each for a Tiger.  

   

No big ticket items.  

   

Are things better in California?  Maybe I’ll move back.  

   

John  

         

  

From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Pollack

 Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 8:00 PM

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual  

  

   

Gary, my last couple of annuals were at Torrence airport (13.9 miles).     

   

    

He charges $650 plus parts. He includes relining brakes and even installed a new exhaust system in that flat price. It took one day to complete.  

    

   

    

Auburn is 322.3 miles each way with hotel, car rental, meals, etc.  I think you can understand why I have a standard annual done locally.  

    

   

    

Rick  

    

   

    

       

On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:  

  



 

         

Just curious.  I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide they could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere.  One customer tells me he can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours.  Of course, the guy works out of his truck.  The other customer is 3 hours away and I can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.  

    

   

    

Questions:  

    

   

    

How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?    

    

   

    

If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being charged?  

    

   

    

Is your annual a fixed cost?  

    

   

    

   

  

  

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[b]

don.curry(at)inbox.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

John,  

You’re paying WAY too much.  Where in NC do you live?  

Don  

Cary, NC  

     

--

jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

There's a saying in boating that the most dangerous expression is "that's a lot of boat for the money."  In aviation, it's "cheap annual".

 

 Five years of cheap annuals is like winning a reverse lottery -- buy a ticket for a buck and lose $15K.

 

 

 Don Curry wrote: [quote]                      

John,   

You’re paying WAY too much.  Where in NC do you live?   

Don   

Cary, NC   

       

-----Original Message-----

   From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Hosler, John

   Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:23 PM

   To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual   

    

All:   

    

Just as calibration (or maybe I need to be) my last 2 annuals here in North Carolina cost approximately $2800 each for a Tiger.   

    

No big ticket items.   

    

Are things better in California?  Maybe I’ll move back.   

    

John   

          

   

From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Pollack

   Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 8:00 PM

   To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual   

   

    

Gary, my last couple of annuals were at Torrence airport (13.9 miles).       

    

      

He charges $650 plus parts. He includes relining brakes and even installed a new exhaust system in that flat price. It took one day to complete.   

      

    

      

Auburn is 322.3 miles each way with hotel, car rental, meals, etc.  I think you can understand why I have a standard annual done locally.   

      

    

      

Rick   

      

    

      

          

On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:   

   

             

Just curious.  I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide they could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere.  One customer tells me he can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours.  Of course, the guy works out of his truck.  The other customer is 3 hours away and I can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.   

      

    

      

Questions:   

      

    

      

How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?     

      

    

      

If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being charged?   

      

    

      

Is your annual a fixed cost?   

      

    

      

    

   

   

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 [b]

cloudvalley(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

2800 is way too much 

Brian and Ruth

 [quote][b]

JHOSLER(at)epri.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Based in Statesville. That’s where I have my annuals done.  

         

  

From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Curry

 Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:32 PM

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual  

  

   

John,  

You’re paying WAY too much.  Where in NC do you live?  

Don  

Cary, NC  

     

--

garnerrice(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:32 am Post subject: Cost of annual

 I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical, when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck, owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion, they are both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things  because "they" don't like it.  Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"

  

 Garner 

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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Those are some pretty cheap annuals.  Linn, I think he said "He charges me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time."  My Pre-Purchase inspection runs $450.  

When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.  At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.  

I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view.  I can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector valve overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts, times on mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items, all at a glance.  When I get a plane for the first time, I may spend up to 6 hours going  through the logs verifying dates and times.  The data on my annuals is about as correct as can be made.  I've seen logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less than what showed due to transposing numbers.  If I'm doing a plane for the first time, it takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the plane; I charge for 18 hrs.  I make it up over the next few years since I now know the plane.

Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and readily available at a glance.  I mean, really, just how important is it to be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of compression tests to look for trends?  Based on a few of the logbooks I've reviewed, some don't even show compression checks (10 years of annuals with no compression checks).  

I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops rates).   I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates).  Then to $85/hr in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress.   $90/hr in 2005.  Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill.  Last year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual.  My annuals typically take 16 to 18 hours.

After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they were my own.  I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.  Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.  I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?   

Owner assisted annuals:  I charge for the hours I spend working on the plane.  Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing that?" constitutes owner assisting.  An owner assisted annual that uses up 24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours.  At the other end of the spectrum is Bobby:  He maintains his plane throughout the year.  When he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual, the wheel pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the oil is changed.  His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though the whole plane.

The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr.  Bob, Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?

Thanks for your input, Team.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


   



          [quote][b]

quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:58 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Garner,  

              You bring up a good point. Is there a AA5 Annual checklist that is available that we can hand to the AP to ensure he’s checking everything? My AP states that he has Grumman experience and my annual (my first actually) was $750. I’d rather pay a few more dollars to make sure it’s done right.  

     

Tom Quinn  

  

       

From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garner Rice

 Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:15 AM

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Cost of annual  

  

  

   



  I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical, when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck, owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion, they are both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things  because "they" don't like it.  Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"

  

 Garner       

  

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stevetyer(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:03 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Just had my annual finished. Dropped it off the last week Of January and got it back last week. He worked on it part time. He charged a flat rate of $300.00. Other Items that needed attention was charged 30.00 hr. I supplied the parts. This was my first annual on the plane. Exhaust and other things needed to be replaced. It ended up being 42 hrs labor, $1900.00 total including the flat rate. With parts added in, my annual was around $4500.00. 

 I wished I lived closer to Gary. I would gladly have let him work on my plane. It would have went alot smoother if my mech knew something about Grummans.  He cut his teeth on mine. Thanks to David and Garner at Fletch Air. They really helped steer my mech in the right direction. They were gracious and didn't ask anything in return. I did buy all my parts from them. I appreciate them going the extra mile. 

  Next year I will be going with someone different who has better time management skills and a knowledge of Grummans. Remember, you get what you pay for.      



Steve Tyer

214-883-0099





On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <[url=mailto:teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM]teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM)[/url]> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Just curious.  I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide they could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere.  One customer tells me he can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours.  Of course, the guy works out of his truck.  The other customer is 3 hours away and I can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.

Questions:

How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?  

If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being charged?

Is your annual a fixed cost?



   



           	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	




 [quote][b]

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Very Good.  You're right.  It is the owner's call.  I could offer something like different levels of inspection.  For 8 hours you get this checked, for 12 hours you get this checked, . . . 

My Pre-Purchase inspection covers all of the same items as my inspection checklist without going into so much detail.  For example, I only pull the rear wing access covers adjacent to the fuel tank to look for leaks.  The cowling doesn't come off unless I suspect something.  What it does cover is how much everything is going to cost to fix.  

I have attached two pages of a Pre-buy I did.  I was giving Fletchair the benefit of the doubt when I picked the number of hours to fix.  I really don't have  any idea how much it would cost to fix the fuel leaks.  They are pretty bad.  Wings are really AFU.  This plane has a lot of issues.  I padded the costs a bit to cover the unforseen.



From: Garner Rice <garnerrice(at)hotmail.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 5:14:49 AM

Subject: RE: Cost of annual



      

 I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical, when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck, owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my  opinion, they are both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things  because "they" don't like it.  Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"

  

 Garner 

 		 	   		  

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v1rotate(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Gary, I know you're venting a bit, but don't change  the way you do annuals.  Those of us who are particular come to you and  keep coming back.  Those people who are not so particular may feel you go  overboard on details and may not come back, but so what?  BTW, I wonder  what having detailed maintenance records going back several years adds  to resale value? I would say it's a significant benefit even before you  discuss the better overall condition of the plane.

  

 Bill

 [quote]      Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and    readily available at a glance.



   After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this    whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they    were my own.  I've been treating these planes as if the owners were    involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.  Perhaps if I    just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.     I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother    with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder    springs or repacking wheel bearings every other  year?  



[b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Gary Vogt wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		           Those are some pretty cheap annuals.  Linn, I think he said "He charges me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time."  My Pre-Purchase inspection runs $450.  

   

   

   When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.  At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.  

   

   

   I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view.  I can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector valve overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts, times on mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items, all at a glance.  When I get a plane for the first time, I may spend up to 6 hours going through the logs verifying dates and times.  The data on my annuals is about as correct as can be made.  I've seen logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less than what showed due to transposing numbers.  If I'm doing a plane for the first time, it takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the plane; I charge for 18 hrs.  I make it up over the next few years since I now know the plane.

   

 	
 The first inspection was more ..... because he had to verify that all the ADs had been complied with .... and annotated the entries with data that was missing.  That included looking at ALL the ADs.  Now he just looks for reecent ones.

  	  Quote: 	
		        Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and readily available at a glance.  I mean, really, just how important is it to be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of compression tests to look for trends?  Based on a few of the logbooks I've reviewed, some don't even show compression checks (10 years of annuals with no compression checks).

   

 	
 I keep all the 'notes' with squawks and the compression checks ..... and usually just compare data with last years.  Keeping all the data .... and keeping it current probably should be a extra charge .... you can cut the hours of the inspection by that time spent pounding keys.

  	  Quote: 	
		        I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops rates).  I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates).  Then to $85/hr in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress.   $90/hr in 2005.  Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill.  Last year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual.  My annuals typically take 16 to 18 hours.

   

 	
 With me removing all the stuff on the checklist, putting it all back, and fixing squawks, I probably have that much time spent.  But I spend a lot of time looking for tools which you probably don't do.  You're probably more thorough.

  	  Quote: 	
		        After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they were my own.

   

 	
 I think you've hit the biggest problem.  We treat our own equipment better than others will ..... but they don't have to worry about the pride or reputation of a job well done.

  	  Quote: 	
		          I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.

   

 	
 Most owners would rather pay the minimum to keep the airplane airworthy and, hopefully, keep their butt safe for a year.  Only when they go to sell it do they find out that it's still 'pay me now or pay me later'.

  	  Quote: 	
		          Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.  I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?

   

 	
 When the filter starts to turn brown and before it crumbles .... I replace it.  A quick tug tells me whether it needs it or not.  I've never replaced one that was dirty .... just aged.  I do repack bearings every other year, and replace oil filters every other change.  Lately I don't fly as much as I did, so it's usually one filter a year.  I spend a lot of time on corrosion control .... mostly the hardware ..... and painting places that need it.   	  Quote: 	
		        

   

   Owner assisted annuals:  I charge for the hours I spend working on the plane.  Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing that?" constitutes owner assisting.  An owner assisted annual that uses up 24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours.  At the other end of the spectrum is Bobby:  He maintains his plane throughout the year.  When he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual, the wheel pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the oil is changed.  His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though the whole plane.

   

 	
 I'm pretty much like Bobby.  Depending on whether the airplane is kept hangared or tied down, I don't see much need to do a complete, maxed out, inspection every year.  I feel that removing every cover/tip/interior .... does more damage than I find.  But, I watch my AI do the inspection, I fix the squawks, and he looks at the work I did when he fills out the logs.  Remember that I have the tools and knowledge (mostly) from building airplanes.

 

 The biggest difference between you and I is that he comes to my hangar which I pay the rent on.  I don't figure how much of the 'rent' (overhead) goes toward the annual, and I'm not trying to make a living wrenching.  I work on MY stuff cheap!!!   I don't know how you guys do it.  My AI works 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and support his family.  Other people pay $400 for an assisted annual, twice that (or more) for one he does by himself.

 Linn

 [quote]      

   

   The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr.  Bob, Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?

   

   

   Thanks for your input, Team.

   

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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

WILLIAM KELLY wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		        DIV { 	MARGIN: 0px }         Gary, I know you're venting a bit, but don't change the way you do annuals.  Those of us who are particular come to you and keep coming back.

 	
 This says there's value in what Gary does.

  	  Quote: 	
		       Those people who are not so particular may feel you go overboard on details and may not come back, but so what?

 	
 So Gary saves some aggravation and the hit on his alcohol bill.  Better to let them go.

  	  Quote: 	
		       BTW, I wonder what having detailed maintenance records going back several years adds to resale value? I would say it's a significant benefit even before you discuss the better overall condition of the plane.

 	
 I'm not so sure.  I developed a scenario when I was brokering airplanes .... you see two guys on the ramp (buyer and seller), and they're looking at the SAME airplane.  The seller sees a gold bar, and the buyer sees a lead bar.  Trying to get either guy to move a little to the center is  next to impossible.  It's not necessarily the condition of the airplane .... it's just the money.  I've seen people buy real junk at an inflated price ..... just because they didn't do their homework.  They didn't want to spend the money on a good pre-buy.  Then when it comes to a good annual, they have a conniption over the cost to make it airworthy.  Now, who do you think they blame???  Yup, the messenger.

 Linn

 

 [quote]    

   Bill

    	  Quote: 	
		            Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and readily available at a glance.

     

     After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they were my own.  I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.  Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.  I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?  

     

   



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 [b]

mmacdonald(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Gary, it sounds like your numbers are in the ball park for annual inspections.  I take my Tiger to a shop similar ot yours.  There hourly rate is a little lower probably because they are in low overhead country.  They track all the maintenance just like you do.  My average cost over the last few years is about $1,800 which includes fixing a few squaks too (afterall the plane is 35 years old.  Seems to be a fair price and I have never found any safety issue after they were finished.  I could tell you a few stories about discoveries after an annual inspection.



The guys that work on my plane deserve to make a decent living, though they probably won't get rich doing what they do.  



Keep doing the work you do to keep the Grummans in the air.



Mark MacDonald

N74052

md11strejo(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Tom,  First an A&P can't sign the annual off,  only an IA.  Second,  most A&P's/IA's us the 100hr checklist,  as long as it meets the scope and detail of CFR43D.  All AD's must be checked & compiled with on all the airframe and engine components.  Like Garner said,  This is an "Inspection"   Your A&P/IA will give you a list of items that need to be fixed in order for the annual to be signed off.   Changing the brake pad's, the oil, cleaning the plug's is extra.  The cost can very.  



Scott



On Jun 22, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Tom Quinn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Garner,

              You bring up a good point. Is there a AA5 Annual checklist that is available that we can hand to the AP to ensure he’s checking everything? My AP states that he has Grumman experience and my annual (my first actually) was $750. I’d rather pay a few more dollars to make sure it’s done right.

 

Tom Quinn



 

From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garner Rice

Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:15 AM

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: Cost of annual

 

 I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical, when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck, owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion, they are both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things  because "they" don't like it.  Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"

 

Garner 

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 [quote][b]

garnerrice(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

        Pre purchase inspection can be wast of time unless done by somebody with the knowledge. I cant tell you how many "pre purchase" inspections include good engine compression and the lights work...David Fletcher is more than happy to do a walk around and call attention anything that jumps out at him as needed. But he will tell you he doesn't like doing the 200.00 pre purchase. He would rather do the annual checklist, because too may things get missed on CHEAP inspections. In the past we would offer different levels of pre-purchase inspections. For example, there was this guy that bought a cheetah and he didn't want to to an extensive pre-buy, so we did what he wanted to pay for. Several years later, it was discovered the wheels were not the correct cleveland part numbers. Well, he wanted to hold us responsible for missing it. 

  

      On the annual inspections, FletchAir Fleet Support will charge 17 hours (at) 65.00 per hour for the inspection of the AA5B/A. Allthough it may take longer with the records search and AD listing. When the airplane was only a couple of years old,l you could pretty much know what to expect. With AD's on different manufactures components, like engine cylinder and serial number specific ones to boot. vacuum pumps and oil coolers. We recently had a plane in the shop with an AD on the oil cooler that was clearly affected and the AD was from decades ago. So the plane was annualed, lets see, 25 times and never caught?  How many good 150.00 annuals did it go through? No a confidence builder.

 

    As I said before, the inspection is just that. If you annual is out at the end of the month and you bring you plane in at the first of the month. A couple of days later, you should know what it will cost to have the necesary list of squawks done  17 hours plus the list of squawks equals the amount you should owe in order to have the annual signed off airworthy.

  

    What happens all too often is, someone takes their plane in at the end of the month and 2 days later its out of annual. The owner feels he is stuck and so is his plane. Or they take their plane in early enough and the shop drags their feet getting around to doing the inspection and all of the sudden its out of annual and again the owner feels stuck.

  

    This is what I would do.

  

 Call the shop and see about scheduling an annual inspection, It is just good business to honor your word. 

 How long will it take to do an annual inspection. Get a firm quote on hours (you can do the math with shop rate. No suprises there) Get a quote on how many days it will take. If they say somthing like "well we wont know until we get into it" Find a shop that knows what and how to do an inspection. 

  

 If I ask them how long it will take you to look out the window, don't come back and say well it depends on how many birds he sees out there. Get the point? If he dont know or cant tell, find someone that does. If he has worth, he should know. He is a professional and should know his job

  

 After the mechanic or shop gives you a quote, then let them do the inspection. A busy shop should not have a problem with doing the inspection in 2 to 3 days. If they don't, I let them know what they quoted. The customers time is valuable also. If the shop is way over due, then that shows poor time management.

  

 So they shoud have about 60 to 70% of the quoted inspection time used up to tell you the list of squawks. It is a good practice to visit the shop if possible to go over the squawks on the "airworthy" items. These are things that must be fixed before it can be signed off as airworthy. It either "is" or "isn't" There shouldn't be any "might" in the airworthiness. If they say the crack in the windshield is an issue,  or the tires, brakes, plugs, need to be replaced, then all they would have to do is show me in the regs or the maintenance manual where that is the issue. If they can't and "pride up" saying they wont sign it off, then take it to someone that knows the business better. 

  

  Your plane is still in annual, then have them button it back up with the 40-30% of time left on the quoted inspection and take it to a more trusted or knowledgable shop or mechinic. I will cost you extra, but sometimes hard lessons can be expensive, but you and the ones you tell will know better next time.

  

 It's your money, you can be friendly, but you dont have to be friends. Keep in mind, they need your money and want your money not your friendship. Friendship don't pay the bills, your money does. Your money. You have it, they want it. That should put you in charge, not the other way around.

  

 I can't imagine someone calling for a part quote and I say 5.00 and turn around and try to charge him 10.00. I say 5, he says ok, I charge him 5. Simple strait forward business. 

  

 Flying is an expensive hobby to start with. Fuel, hanger, insurance. All known cost. Good maintenance should be a known not a shock.

  

 Garner

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:01:53 -0700

From: teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM

Subject: Re: Cost of annual

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com



  .ExternalClass DIV {;}    Very Good.  You're right.  It is the owner's call.  I could offer something like different levels of inspection.  For 8 hours you get this checked, for 12 hours you get this checked, . . . 

 



 My Pre-Purchase inspection covers all of the same items as my inspection checklist without going into so much detail.  For example, I only pull the rear wing access covers adjacent to the fuel tank to look for leaks.  The cowling doesn't come off unless I suspect something.  What it does cover is how much everything is going to cost to fix.  

 



 I have attached two pages of a Pre-buy I did.  I was giving Fletchair the benefit of the doubt when I picked the number of hours to fix.  I really don't have any idea how much it would cost to fix the fuel leaks.  They are pretty bad.  Wings are really AFU.  This plane has a lot of issues.  I padded the costs a bit to cover the unforseen.

 

   From: Garner Rice <garnerrice(at)hotmail.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 5:14:49 AM

Subject: RE: Cost of annual



  .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}  

 I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical, when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck, owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion, they are both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things  because "they" don't like it.  Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"

 

Garner 



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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

And when you get that quote, have them put it down on paper.  If they balk, it's time to walk ..... er .... fly.

 Linn

 

 Garner Rice wrote: [quote]           Pre purchase inspection can be wast of time unless done by somebody with the knowledge. I cant tell you how many "pre purchase" inspections include good engine compression and the lights work...David Fletcher is more than happy to do a walk around and call attention anything that jumps out at him as needed. But he will tell you he doesn't like doing the 200.00 pre purchase. He would rather do the annual checklist, because too may things get missed on CHEAP inspections. In the past we would offer different levels of pre-purchase inspections. For example, there was this guy that bought a cheetah and he didn't want to to an extensive pre-buy, so we did what he wanted to pay for. Several years later, it was discovered the wheels were not the correct cleveland part numbers. Well, he wanted to hold us responsible for missing it. 

  

      On the annual inspections, FletchAir Fleet Support will charge 17 hours (at) 65.00 per hour for the inspection of the AA5B/A. Allthough it may take longer with the records search and AD listing. When the airplane was only a couple of years old,l you could pretty much know what to expect. With AD's on different manufactures components, like engine cylinder and serial number specific ones to boot. vacuum pumps and oil coolers. We recently had a plane in the shop with an AD on the oil cooler that was clearly affected and the AD was from decades ago. So the plane was annualed, lets see, 25 times and never caught?  How many good 150.00 annuals did it go through? No a confidence builder.

  

    As I said before, the inspection is just that. If you annual is out at the end of the month and you bring you plane in at the first of the month. A couple of days later, you should know what it will cost to have the necesary list of squawks done  17 hours plus the list of squawks equals the amount you should owe in order to have the annual signed off airworthy.

  

    What happens all too often is, someone takes their plane in at the end of the month and 2 days later its out of annual. The owner feels he is stuck and so is his plane. Or they take their plane in early enough and the shop drags their feet getting around to doing the inspection and all of the sudden its out of annual and again the owner feels stuck.

  

    This is what I would do.

  

 Call the shop and see about scheduling an annual inspection, It is just good business to honor your word. 

 How long will it take to do an annual inspection. Get a firm quote on hours (you can do the math with shop rate. No suprises there) Get a quote on how many days it will take. If they say somthing like "well we wont know until we get into it" Find a shop that knows what and how to do an inspection. 

  

 If I ask them how long it will take you to look out the window, don't come back and say well it depends on how many birds he sees out there. Get the point? If he dont know or cant tell, find someone that does. If he has worth, he should know. He is a professional and should know his job

  

 After the mechanic or shop gives you a quote, then let them do the inspection. A busy shop should not have a problem with doing the inspection in 2 to 3 days. If they don't, I let them know what they quoted. The customers time is valuable also. If the shop is way over due, then that shows poor time management.

  

 So they shoud have about 60 to 70% of the quoted inspection time used up to tell you the list of squawks. It is a good practice to visit the shop if possible to go over the squawks on the "airworthy" items. These are things that must be fixed before it can be signed off as airworthy. It either "is" or "isn't" There shouldn't be any "might" in the airworthiness. If they say the crack in the windshield is an issue,  or the tires, brakes, plugs, need to be replaced, then all they would have to do is show me in the regs or the maintenance manual where that is the issue. If they can't and "pride up" saying they wont sign it off, then take it to someone that knows the business better. 

  

  Your plane is still in annual, then have them button it back up with the 40-30% of time left on the quoted inspection and take it to a more trusted or knowledgable shop or mechinic. I will cost you extra, but sometimes hard lessons can be expensive, but you and the ones you tell will know better next time.

  

 It's your money, you can be friendly, but you dont have to be friends. Keep in mind, they need your money and want your money not your friendship. Friendship don't pay the bills, your money does. Your money. You have it, they want it. That should put you in charge, not the other way around.

  

 I can't imagine someone calling for a part quote and I say 5.00 and turn around and try to charge him 10.00. I say 5, he says ok, I charge him 5. Simple strait forward business. 

  

 Flying is an expensive hobby to start with. Fuel, hanger, insurance. All known cost. Good maintenance should be a known not a shock.

  

 Garner[b]

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