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Chris_A

Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Mustang OK

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:41 pm Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Hi, my name is Chris I recently purchased a Firestar and have been spending a fair amount of time on the list gleaning information. Well all was fine with the plane until last Friday when I hauled it on my open trailer down the freeway. I have been hauling it about 15 miles on the weekends to a small uncontrolled airport without issue. But on this longer and faster trip I managed to break the fuselage tube just behind the support stand I built. I have ordered a replacement from Kolb (Travis is a super guy to work with). I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage.



Thanks 



Chris

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: New guy with repair questions

I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to 

replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Thanks



 Chris


	


I'm guessing you never built a Kolb.



Removing the damaged tailboom is a major task.



Replacing the tailboom is a major contruction project:



-cutting to correct length.



-fitting to fuselage and installing the H brace.



-rigging and installing the tailsection.



Recommend you obtain a Contruction Manual and Plan Sheets for that project.



Good luck.



Still scratching my head how a tailboom could be destroyed like that.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

nla1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Hi Chris

How about a picture of your support stand.  I agree with John...I'm 

scratching to figure this out.

L

On 6/22/2010 7:59 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to 

 replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage.

>

> Thanks

>

> Chris

 I'm guessing you never built a Kolb.

 Removing the damaged tailboom is a major task.

 Replacing the tailboom is a major contruction project:

 -cutting to correct length.

 -fitting to fuselage and installing the H brace.

 -rigging and installing the tailsection.

 Recommend you obtain a Contruction Manual and Plan Sheets for that 

 project.

 Good luck.

 Still scratching my head how a tailboom could be destroyed like that.

 john h

 mkIII

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: New guy with repair questions

   Chris- Two years ago I crashed my original Firestar on landing.  My fault, ignorance.  The first thing I can suggest is to take lots of photos of everything from all angles.  including parts that are not damaged.  Next- never throw anything away until the job is completely done.  Measure and draw all items- make your own "blueprint" in terms you will understand quite a while from now.  Pretend you are doing it for somebody else

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: New guy with repair questions

John, Larry, I've written on this before in advice to those bringing a new-to-them Kolb home. The answer is quite simple, excessive G loading on a point. In another life I was the junior engineer at a company that produced collater / stackers for the printing industry. I got tagged to spend two days at the Yellow Freight packaging lab in Kansas City filming the results of typical stresses involved in over the road transport. One of the things that struck me and stuck with me is that a simple tar strip, that tha-thump, tha-thump seems innocuous when riding in a car but it's murder on packaging. It can represent a 6G load if the package isn't properly damped. Apparently in this case it wasn't. 



Rick Girard



On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Chris_A <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net (50calibercruiser(at)cox.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net (50calibercruiser(at)cox.net)>

 

 Hi, my name is Chris I recently purchased a Firestar and have been spending a fair amount of time on the list gleaning information. Well all was fine with the plane until last Friday when I hauled it on my open trailer down the freeway. I have been hauling it about 15 miles on the weekends to a small uncontrolled airport without issue. But on this longer and faster trip I managed to break the fuselage tube just behind the support stand I built. I have ordered a replacement from Kolb (Travis is a super guy to work with). I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage.

  

 Thanks

 

 Chris

 

 

 

 

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Chris_A

Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Mustang OK

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: New guy with repair questions

Thanks for the replies. No I have never built a Kolb, but I have plenty of experience with similar projects. I bought the firestar out of an estate sale and this plane was the love of the owners life. I have all the original plans and manuals and have been studying them. I will take a picture of the support and post it ASAP. Travis said the same thing regarding the damage, first time he has heard of it.

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Hi Chris,





Those are some sad shots of your a/c. As I haul my firestar 

 

 6 or 7 thousand miles a year on a open trailer (at) 65 to75 mph I would sure like to 

see a picture of your boom stand.Depends, I might even want to pull the paint off and dye check that area. Sorry I don't have any tips for 

you but I think it should be simple job to replace the tube.

Frank Goodnight

Brownsville ,Tx



From: Chris_A  <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:41:22 PM

Subject: New guy with repair questions



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net (50calibercruiser(at)cox.net)>



Hi, my name is Chris I recently purchased a Firestar and have been spending a fair amount of time on the list gleaning information. Well all was fine with the plane until last Friday when I hauled it on my open trailer down the freeway. I have been hauling it about 15 miles on the weekends to a small uncontrolled airport without issue. But on this longer and faster trip I managed to break the fuselage tube just behind the support stand I built. I have ordered a replacement from Kolb (Travis is a super guy to work with). I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. Here are the pictures of the damage.



Thanks 



Chris





Read this topic online here:

Chris_A

Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Mustang OK

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: New guy with repair questions

Here is my boom support. When I loaded the firestar the pipe insulation was still intact. The way I secured it was: wrap a towel around the tube then with the tube in the straddle I would wrap a ratcheting strap around the tube and  straddle and tighten it up to the point that the foam would start to compress slightly. Then ratchet the base of the straddle to the floor of the trailer. The break occurred immediately after the rear straddle arm. It's pretty clear the tube was bouncing enough to chew through the towel and foam. But the straps were not loose at all.



Thanks for the input,



Chris

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: Re: New guy with repair questions

I don't see any problems with the boom support design so the reason for this odd break is probably one of two things.



1- The trailer is designed (sprung) for a much much heavier load than the Firestar weight which will result in the "springs" not actually springing at all. Like a hard tail Harley, no springing but the seat coils (boom tube foam).



2- The boom was stressed and strained already from repeated "hard-tail" trailering or some other incident before you acquired the Firestar.



If the trailer is at fault, you need to fix or change the trailer before hauling your Firestar again. Ideally, the trailer should be a light duty one with a load capacity of not over about 1,000-1,500 lbs. max, less is better. If your trailer is a heavy duty one, then at least reduce the trailer tire pressure to get some extra springing from them. 



When I hauled my second purchased Firestar from SC to NY it was in a big heavy dual axle trailer but I reduced the tire pressure to help compensate. I also supported the tail boom as close to the ventral fin (tail wheel rod/spring) as possible to reduce the "overhung" load arm to a minimum and the boom support had about three inches of foam rubber before compression and about 2" thick compressed from the static boom weight.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Thom, Chris, Looks like the point that generated the failure is the weld where the saddle tubes attach. Even with the pipe insulation the design has a very small contact area. Then consider that the attach tube for the folded wings is 2 feet or more behind the end of the boom support. Say each wing is a 25 lb load at that point, X 2 is 50 lb., add the tail weight as another 15 lb., say, and you have 65 lb acting on a 2' or greater arm. Now multiply times 6 and you've got 790 lb cyclic load (that tha-thump from the tar strip, expansion joints or washboard (concrete or asphalt acted on by big trucks will washboard just like a dirt road)) acting on that small contact point. Once a dent is created (you can see dents in the picture bottom_180 at both the failure point and also at the forward saddle contact point) failure follows rapidly.  



Rick Girard



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I don't see any problems with the boom support design so the reason for this odd break is probably one of two things.

 

 1- The trailer is designed (sprung) for a much much heavier load than the Firestar weight which will result in the "springs" not actually springing at all. Like a hard tail Harley, no springing but the seat coils (boom tube foam).

   

 2- The boom was stressed and strained already from repeated "hard-tail" trailering or some other incident before you acquired the Firestar.

 

 If the trailer is at fault, you need to fix or change the trailer before hauling your Firestar again. Ideally, the trailer should be a light duty one with a load capacity of not over about 1,000-1,500 lbs. max, less is better. If your trailer is a heavy duty one, then at least reduce the trailer tire pressure to get some extra springing from them.

   

 When I hauled my second purchased Firestar from SC to NY it was in a big heavy dual axle trailer but I reduced the tire pressure to help compensate. I also supported the tail boom as close to the ventral fin (tail wheel rod/spring) as possible to reduce the "overhung" load arm to a minimum and the boom support had about three inches of foam rubber before compression and about 2" thick compressed from the static boom weight.

   

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x32

 

 

 I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it.

   - Pablo Picasso

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302181#302181

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:49 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Hi Cris,

One thing you might want to consider if your tail boom has not already shipped , is to have kolb position the new H section

and drill a few pilot holes in the boom like they do when they ship a new kit.save a lot of work.

Frank Goodnight

firestar 2

Brownsville , TX



From: Chris_A <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 8:14:13  PM

Subject: Re: New guy with repair questions



   

 [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Rick, good point.  I hadn't considered he might have supported the wings on the tail.  That is only a convenience for pushing it into a hangar,not for transport.  In a trailer you should either remove them and hang from straps on the walls or, if left attached, hung from the ceiling.

Put a buffer strip on the nose to take the shocks.

I trucked my wreck, including one good wing, in a big Uhaul truck from Phoenixville, PA to Rochester, NY.  No damage.

BB

On 23, Jun 2010, at 7:46 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]Thom, Chris, Looks like the point that generated the failure is the weld where the saddle tubes attach. Even with the pipe insulation the design has a very small contact area. Then consider that the attach tube for the folded wings is 2 feet or more behind the end of the boom support. Say each wing is a 25 lb load at that point, X 2 is 50 lb., add the tail weight as another 15 lb., say, and you have 65 lb acting on a 2' or greater arm. Now multiply times 6 and you've got 790 lb cyclic load (that tha-thump from the tar strip, expansion joints or washboard (concrete or asphalt acted on by big trucks will washboard just like a dirt road)) acting on that small contact point. Once a dent is created (you can see dents in the picture bottom_180 at both the failure point and also at the forward saddle contact point) failure follows rapidly.  



Rick Girard



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I don't see any problems with the boom support design so the reason for this odd break is probably one of two things.

 

 1- The trailer is designed (sprung) for a much much heavier load than the Firestar weight which will result in the "springs" not actually springing at all. Like a hard tail Harley, no springing but the seat coils (boom tube foam).

   

 2- The boom was stressed and strained already from repeated "hard-tail" trailering or some other incident before you acquired the Firestar.

 

 If the trailer is at fault, you need to fix or change the trailer before hauling your Firestar again. Ideally, the trailer should be a light duty one with a load capacity of not over about 1,000-1,500 lbs. max, less is better. If your trailer is a heavy duty one, then at least reduce the trailer tire pressure to get some extra springing from them.

   

 When I hauled my second purchased Firestar from SC to NY it was in a big heavy dual axle trailer but I reduced the tire pressure to help compensate. I also supported the tail boom as close to the ventral fin (tail wheel rod/spring) as possible to reduce the "overhung" load arm to a minimum and the boom support had about three inches of foam rubber before compression and about 2" thick compressed from the static boom weight.

   

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x32

 

 

 I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it.

   - Pablo Picasso

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302181#302181

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

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 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



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[b]

customersupport(at)tnkolb
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

We are unable to install the H section in the boom  here without the matching fuselage cage on hand.

 New wing spars we do but not tail  booms.

  

 Travis

 Kolb CO.

 [quote]   ---

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

New Guy,

 If you measure the distance between the forward most axle of the trailer and the rear axle of the towing

    vehicle,you will have found the smoothest riding spot in your trailer at the halfway point.Arrange the load so you place the boom support as close to that point as possible.The gear legs protect the rest of the load from shock,(if you anchor the tires, not the frame, to the trailer floor) and spring the trailer as close as you can to the actual weight you are carrying Anything placed over the axles will take a beating.

   Take a look at George Alexanders trailer section on his web site.

 G.Aman Mk3C over 20,000 miles trailering Kolbs damage free

  

     

  

    

     

  

     

  

    --

Chris_A

Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Mustang OK

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: Re: New guy with repair questions

Thanks for input everyone,

I did trailer it with the wings attached to the boom. How do you guys with open trailers deal with the wings? The trailer is pretty light weight, I'm not sure what the rating is though.

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

HI Chris and list,

Sorry for the misinformation. Travis thanks for  the correct info.

Frank Goodnight



From: Chris_A <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:38:05 PM

Subject: Re: New guy with repair questions



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Chris_A" <50calibercruiser(at)cox.net (50calibercruiser(at)cox.net)>



Here is my boom support. When I loaded the firestar the pipe insulation was still intact. The way I secured it was: wrap a towel around the tube then with the tube in the straddle I would wrap a ratcheting strap around the tube and  straddle and tighten it up to the point that the foam would start to compress slightly. Then ratchet the base of the straddle to the floor of the trailer. The break occurred immediately after the rear straddle arm. It's pretty clear the tube was bouncing enough to chew through the towel and foam. But the straps were not loose at all.



Thanks for the input,



Chris





Read this topic online here:

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

Morning Bob B/Gang:

  

 Trailering a Kolb ain't rocket  science.

  

 July 2000, Nell and I pulled a 24 foot box trailer  3,742 miles from Titus, AL, to Muncho Lake, British Columbia, to retrieve my  broken mkIII.

  

 Before I left home I had to visualize what it was  going to take to get my airplane to Oshkosh, and then to Titus, AL.

  

 I loaded up with 2X4 studs, hand saw, deck screws,  drill motor, carpet remnants, and tie down straps.

  

 When we got there we had to rig temporary gear  under the mkIII because I had wiped the main gear off in the crash.

  

 Hung the wings on the trailer walls with the  leading edges in carpet lined cradles, loaded the fuselage, built a cradle for  the tailboom out of 2X4's and secured about midway with the tailwheel on the  deck, chocked mains and secured everything with ratchet tie down  straps.

  

 Pulling on the Alaska Highway and northern Canadian  roads was dusty and rough.  The trailer sucked in glacial dust that ate up  the brand new lexan, but there was no other damage from trailering from many,  many miles.

  

 If secured and towed improperly, you can tear one  up in a matter of miles.

  

 john h

 mkIII - Bored in Alabama.

 [quote]    

   I trucked my wreck, including one good wing, in a big Uhaul truck from    Phoenixville, PA to Rochester, NY.  No damage.

   BB

       

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for input everyone,

 I did trailer it with the wings attached to the boom. How do you guys with open trailers deal with the wings? The trailer is pretty light weight, I'm not sure what the rating is though.

 Greg

  
	


 Greg,

  

   I've been listening to everybody's advice opinions, etc.  All seems like pretty good info.

 Rick G. analized the math behind what happened.  Thank God your boom broke on the trailer.  That concentrated stress he mentioned could have set up a weak point that may well have broken in flight!!

  

   Did you get the "H" frame?  You absolutely positively need a new one!  Trying to use an old one will possibly set up your plane to a potential crash.  IMO!

  

   When you trailer your plane, as has been said, the weight of the wings should NOT be joined onto the boom tube.

   For trailering, here is the boom support I built.  Note; each wing has it's own cushioned,

 pivoting, long pocket.  The boom support itself is a 36" long piece of 8" diameter of PVC water pipe (available free from 99.9% of your local water department).  The PVC pipe was cut lengthwise, and closes firmly with some latches.  I padded it in a couple of layers of carpet foam rubber, then wrapped in some nice upholstery fabric).  My boom tube is support by 36" of tightly fitted foam (and NO wing weight).

  

   My design is taken from Uncle Craig (on this list), with my own modifications.  If you need more photos, let me know.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII



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undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

if anyone has any tips or tricks when it comes to replacing the tube. 

Here are

       the pictures of the damage.



       Thanks



       Chris

Chris,



I'm not an engineer and can't recommend what to do, but I feel the 

repair I did after my fuse tube bent from an engine out and rough 

landing in my Ultrastar was actually stronger than original.  I 

conferred with a number of knowledgeable people and was told only to 

keep alert for any movement between the pieces as time went on.  In 

essence, all's tight, all's OK.



I got a tube and cut it the same length as the damaged section I was 

replacing.  Then I cut a piece about a foot long from the damaged tube 

and had a kerf cut length-wise so I could slip it into the existing tail 

section and the new tube.  It fit nice and tight; had to tap it in with 

a block of wood over end of tube.  Then I riveted it as shown in the photo.



That was my fix, you may choose to do it differently, but the time saved 

was significant and when it's all painted the same color not too many 

people would know it was different from the kit.



Best,



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA



FireFly 11DMK

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: New guy with repair questions

> That was my fix, you may choose to do it differently, but the time saved

 	  Quote: 	
		   was significant and when it's all painted the same color not too many

 people would know it was different from the kit.



 Best,



 Dave Kulp


	




Dave:



Good looking job on the tailboom splice.  I'm sure it will pass muster with 

our resident engineers.  However, I wouldn't fly it because that splice 

would be nagging me in the back of my mind the entire time I was in the air.



Right or wrong, I have to be comfortable with what I am flying, or it takes 

the fun out of it, and that is what flying is all about for me.



john h    mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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