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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Hi John and all,

Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside 

and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar 2

Brownsville, TX



From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM

Subject: Re: New guy with repair questions



   

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

No way I would ever be comfortable with a spliced  tailboom.

  

 May be an acceptable method of repair, but I would  not go that route.  Too much riding on it for me.

  

 Where I play is very unforgiving for dumb  mistakes.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

-or just chop it at the break and use a short tail 



Seriously, if you could find tubing that telescoped internally in a perfect fit, stuck in about a foot, it would be

strong enough.  You might run into a little problem with the legal angle even though it is experimental.

BB



On 22, Jun 2010, at 9:50 PM, frank goodnight wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi John and all,

Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside 

and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar 2

Brownsville, TX



From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM

Subject: Re: New guy with repair questions

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


 [quote][b]

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Frank and all,  

   

A properly designed spice could provide 100% of the tube strength.  The Laser had a spliced wing spar.  The root spar was 5” x ¼” wall. The middle spar was 5” x 1/8” wall and the outer spar was 5” x .049” wall.  The 5” x 1/8” wall spar was turned down at the end so the 5” x .049 was a nice slip fit.  A splice could be made in a similar way.  A short section, say 12” would be turned down on both ends leaving a short ridge in the center to butt the fuselage tube against – this would ensure the splice was centered.  Stresses at the tail are much less than further forward – except for improper trailering!  The very end of the turned down section would need to be rounded so as to not stress the fuselage tube – that is how we did the Laser.   The rivets would transmit the torsional loads and the splice tube itself would take up most of the bending strength even without rivets.  The length of the splice would need to be determined, 1 ft might not be enough, but 2 ft would be too much … so somewhere in between.  This is an easy problem to solve using Cosmos FEA and Solidworks.  

   

The splice would be made of 6061-T6 and the turned down section would be stronger than the 6063 alum the fuselage is made from.  

   

The rivet pattern would need to be engineered properly, another task for Cosmos.  

   

Dennis  

   

         

  

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of frank goodnight

 Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:50 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions  

  

       

Hi John and all,  

    

Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside   

    

and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with.  

    

   

    

Frank Goodnight  

    

Firestar 2  

    

Brownsville, TX  

    

         

  

From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM

 Subject: Re: New guy with repair questions  

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

The biggest problem would be finding telescoping sizes of tubing. For an internal splice you'd need 4 7/8" .058 or .065 wall. Not exactly a common size. Same for an external sleeve, 5 1/8" .058 wall isn't listed anywhere I can find either. Better to just go the route you've started down and replace the tube. Since you've already been in touch with Travis, have him send you a new "H" frame. You'll play hell trying to match up the rivet holes in the old one and leaving them unfilled and drilling new ones is just asking for a place for cracks to start.

 



Rick Girard



On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:02 PM, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote] -or just chop it at the break and use a short tail 



Seriously, if you could find tubing that telescoped internally in a perfect fit, stuck in about a foot, it would be

 strong enough.  You might run into a little problem with the legal angle even though it is experimental.

BB



On 22, Jun 2010, at 9:50 PM, frank goodnight wrote:



 

 	  Quote: 	
		    Hi John and all,

Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve the broken area with an inside 

 and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and whatever thickness you are comfy with.

 Frank Goodnight

Firestar 2

Brownsville, TX



 

 From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

 Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 6:59:28 PM

Subject: Re: New guy with repair questions



 



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[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Rick:

  

 The biggest problem would be to find 5" tubes that  were precisely sized.

  

 These tubes are manufactured primarily for  irrigation pipe.  Circumference of a 6" tube can change a lot from one end  to the next.  Getting a tube to fit a ring can be a pain in the butt, when  factoring in the ring can also be a tad too small

 [quote]    

The biggest problem would be finding    telescoping sizes of tubing. For an internal splice you'd need 4 7/8" .058 or    .065 wall. Not exactly a common size. Same for an external sleeve, 5 1/8" .058    wall isn't listed anywhere I can find either.   Better to just go the route you've started down and replace the tube.    Since you've already been in touch with Travis, have him send you a new "H"    frame. You'll play hell trying to match up the rivet holes in the old one and    leaving them unfilled and drilling new ones is just asking for a place for    cracks to start.

   



   Rick Girard

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Hit the wrong darn button before I finished writing  my response.

  

 What I was trying to say was no two tubes, 5" and  6", are created equal.  No two ends of one of those tubes will be the same  size.

  

 john h

 mkIII

   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Hi Frank,

    I saw a Drifter that had the boom tube  spliced...looked good...was done by a experenced repair man....but it was a neat  square cut on the boom tube with a sleeve inside that was quite long.....looked  to me like it would be ok....but in Chris's case the boom tube looks to bad to  be spliced....I agree with John H. best to replace the whole boom tube....will  be interesting to find out how this happened.....bad deal....Jim  Swan



  

 Do not  archive

FIRESTAR ll 503 Michigan jswan

GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581  W084deg 44.825

  [quote][b]

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Hi John and all,

 Just idle thoughts , could someone tell me why it would not be ok to sleeve  the broken area with an inside 

 and a outside sleeve , say 18to 24 in long, T4 or T6 , plenty of rivits and  whatever thickness you are comfy with.

 



 Frank Goodnight

 Firestar 2

 Brownsville, TX

  

 Hi Frank,

    I saw a Drifter that had the boom tube  spliced...looked good...was done by a experenced repair man....but it was a neat  square cut on the boom tube with a sleeve inside that was quite long.....looked  to me like it would be ok....but in Chris's case the boom tube looks to bad to  be spliced....I agree with John H. best to replace the whole boom tube....will  be interesting to find out how this happened.....bad deal....Jim  Swan



  [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

When splicing a tube like that, a common method is to use a piece of the original tube, split lengthwise just enough so it will squeeze down into the original tube.  Not as strong as the original in torsion, but a similar outside sleeve 180° apart would handle that and then some... though close to the tail where this damage should normally be much lower stressed than farther forward.



 Based on the pictures, it appears that it's cracked around the bottom.... correct?  In this case it looks as though the tailboom was forced upwards aft of this.  Where was the support relative to the brek?



 Rick, I feel stupid.  I've wondered how one would replace a tailboom and match the rivet holes.  I never thought of the obvious, replace the H-section with a new undrilled one along with the tailboom.



 -Dana



 At 10:36 PM 6/22/2010, Richard Girard wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The biggest problem would be finding telescoping sizes of tubing. For an internal splice you'd need 4 7/8" .058 or .065 wall. Not exactly a common size. Same for an external sleeve, 5 1/8" .058 wall isn't listed anywhere I can find either.

 Better to just go the route you've started down and replace the tube. Since you've already been in touch with Travis, have him send you a new "H" frame. You'll play hell trying to match up the rivet holes in the old one and leaving them unfilled and drilling new ones is just asking for a place for cracks to start. 	


 --

  Why did the chicken cross the Mobius strip?  To get to the other, er, um....    [quote][b]

Chris_A

Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Mustang OK

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

I did toy with the idea of repairing it and my thought was to take a piece of 5" O.D. .125 wall 6061 T6, and make a "coupler" out of it by turning the walls down .052 at both ends so they would slide into either end of the cut tube and leave the center of the coupler untouched so that when everything was slid together the O.D. would be flush. Then rivet the ends. But I've already got the new one paid for.

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

As Dana said, â€œWhen splicing a tube like that, a common method is to use a piece of the original tube, split lengthwise just enough so it will squeeze down [tightly] into the original tube.â€  But STRESS CONCENTRATION problems have been overlooked, which would be of critical importance when splicing a fuselage boom tube.  Chapter 4 of AC 43.13-1B is useful as a guide.   A split sleeve could be used if the ends were cut off at a large angle (about 30 degrees from lengthwise axis) in order to spread the load along the tubing and prevent stress concentration in one spot.  Such a repair should work fine at the tail end, but is just too scary near the highly loaded fuselage pod end of the tube.  Also, since it would be impossible to buck solid aircraft rivets, self plugging Cherry aerospace rivets (CR9163 â€“ available through Aircraft Spruce) should be used for the repair.  A repair using pop rivets would not be nearly as strong and the pop rivets would be subject to loosening after repeated load cycles.



I am very glad to hear that you ordered a new tube.

_________________
Jerry King

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Dana Hague wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Rick, I feel stupid.  I've wondered how one would replace a tailboom  

 and match the rivet holes.  I never thought of the obvious, replace  

 the H-section with a new undrilled one along with the tailboom.



 -Dana


	




Kolb Rebuilders,



The best way to exactly match rivet holes and reuse the H-section is  

to make a paper tube template.  After removing all the rivets and the  

H-section, wrap the tube tightly with a large piece of paper and tape  

the paper together so that will remain together in the shape of a  

paper tube after it is slid off the undamaged end of the boom tube. To  

secure the paper to the boom, temporarily  tape this paper tube to the  

boom over the rivet holes and the bolt hole and then drill all the  

holes in the paper.  Now you have made an exact template.  Carefully  

slide the paper sleeve from the old boom and slide it in place over  

the new tube and tape it securely.  Carefully center punch and drill  

the holes in the paper for the main bolt  first, and then do the four  

rivets at the ends of each leg of the H-section.  Now carefully  

reinsert the H-section in place and insert the main bolt. Then rivet  

the ends of the H-section legs in place, MAKING SURE  the H-section  

legs are WEDGED TIGHT  against the inside of the boom tube before  

riveting.  Then center punch, drill, and rivet the remaining holes.



p.s.



Make sure all burrs are removed from the rivet holes in the H-section  

before sliding in place.  A 2x4 on either side of the boom with a C  

clamp to squeeze the tube a slight bit will make a tight fitting H- 

section much easier to install.



Gene

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Thanks  Eugene,

After spending at least 50 years as a mechanic it never fails to amaze me how little I know . One reason I love the list

is that I learn so much from it . I'll remember that little gem you gave us , hope I never have to use it but it sure will be handy

if I do.

Frank Goodnight



From: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, June  23, 2010 12:10:14 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm(at)gmail.com (etzimm(at)gmail.com)>

On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Dana Hague wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Rick, I feel stupid.  I've wondered how one would replace a tailboom and match the rivet holes.  I never thought of the obvious, replace the H-section with a new undrilled one along with the tailboom.

 

 -Dana


	




Kolb Rebuilders,



The best way to exactly match rivet holes and reuse the H-section is to make a paper tube template.  After removing all the rivets and the H-section, wrap the tube tightly with a large piece of paper and tape the paper together so that will remain together in the shape of a paper tube after it is slid off the undamaged end of the boom tube. To secure the paper to the boom, temporarily  tape this paper tube to the boom over the rivet holes and the bolt hole and  then drill all the holes in the paper.  Now you have made an exact template.  Carefully slide the paper sleeve from the old boom and slide it in place over the new tube and tape it securely.  Carefully center punch and drill the holes in the paper for the main bolt  first, and then do the four rivets at the ends of each leg of the H-section.  Now carefully reinsert the H-section in place and insert the main bolt. Then rivet the ends of the H-section legs in place, MAKING SURE  the H-section legs are WEDGED TIGHT  against the inside of the boom tube before riveting.  Then center punch, drill, and rivet the remaining holes.



p.s.



Make sure all burrs are removed from the rivet holes in the H-section before sliding in place.  A 2x4 on either side of the boom with a C clamp to squeeze the tube a slight bit will make a tight fitting H-section much easier to   

 [quote][b]

Chris_A

Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 20
Location: Mustang OK

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

 	  Eugene Zimmerman wrote: 	
		  On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:16 PM, Dana Hague wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Rick, I feel stupid.  I've wondered how one would replace a tailboom  

 and match the rivet holes.  I never thought of the obvious, replace  

 the H-section with a new undrilled one along with the tailboom.



 -Dana



	




Kolb Rebuilders,



The best way to exactly match rivet holes and reuse the H-section is  

to make a paper tube template.  After removing all the rivets and the  

H-section, wrap the tube tightly with a large piece of paper and tape  

the paper together so that will remain together in the shape of a  

paper tube after it is slid off the undamaged end of the boom tube. To  

secure the paper to the boom, temporarily  tape this paper tube to the  

boom over the rivet holes and the bolt hole and then drill all the  

holes in the paper.  Now you have made an exact template.  Carefully  

slide the paper sleeve from the old boom and slide it in place over  

the new tube and tape it securely.  Carefully center punch and drill  

the holes in the paper for the main bolt  first, and then do the four  

rivets at the ends of each leg of the H-section.  Now carefully  

reinsert the H-section in place and insert the main bolt. Then rivet  

the ends of the H-section legs in place, MAKING SURE  the H-section  

legs are WEDGED TIGHT  against the inside of the boom tube before  

riveting.  Then center punch, drill, and rivet the remaining holes.



p.s.



Make sure all burrs are removed from the rivet holes in the H-section  

before sliding in place.  A 2x4 on either side of the boom with a C  

clamp to squeeze the tube a slight bit will make a tight fitting H- 

section much easier to install.



Gene 	




Gene,



Thank you for posting this. This is exactly what I came up with after racking my brain last night. My plan was to do this for both ends of the tube and verify with the plans. Is that an unrealistic expectation?  



Thank you guys for all the advice, none of it has fallen on deaf ears.



Chris

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

I am not trying to make anyone mad but have you ever tried to use Paper for a template working with Metal  I have been a Welder Fabricator most of my life and Paper does not work very well  other than to make drawings on 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am not trying to make anyone mad but have you ever tried to use Paper for a template working with Metal 	






Yup,

Worked perfect for me on  the boom tubes and the wing spars on the three major rebuilds that I have done. 

Nothing wrong with your way though if you don't mind the extra work of cutting  apart the old tubes.

Gene

 [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Ellery,

  

   Maybe Gene used stiff paper, I don't know.  His method seems to work well for him.

  

   I recall needing to match rivet holes on something once, I can't remember exactly what it was.

  

   If I needed to match all the rivets holes along a line (like a boom tube), I would do this method again;

  

 1)  First, drill out each end rivet completely (just the end rivet!).  

 2) Then cut a piece of Lexan big enough to cover every rivet hole in the line sufficiently (say, 2" x 16").  

 3)  Drill a hole near one end of the Lexan, and secure it in place with a cleco, to that one drilled hole.  

 4)  Now, with the Lexan taped firmly, visually line up and drill through the other end rivet hole, and insert your second cleco.

 5)  Now, you've got a rectangular piece of Lexan stuck in place with a cleco at each end of the line of rivets.  

 6)  Since it is transparent, you can now drill a 1/16" hole perfectly centered on each rivet.  You do NOT want to drill out the rivet.....it's only a locating hole for every remaining rivet.

  

 7)  Next, after you've drilled a tiny hole centered on every remaining rivet, remove the Lexan.  You can now drill out all the rivets, and remove the "H" brace.

  

   When reinstalling the H brace, all you need is to do is locate the end rivet holes, and hold the H brace in place with clecos, but you'll want to make sure you include your Lexan when you put your clecos in.  

 9)  All that's left is to drill each locating hole deep enough into your boom tube with that 1/16" drillbit to where when you drill the holes bigger the 1/8" drillbit doesn't wander.  If you've got a good, sharp 1/16" drillbit, you could probably go ahead and drill each hole all the way through.

  

   Lexan may be an alternate for some cases where paper might not work.  

  

   Just an idea I did once........

 

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:34:14 -0400

From: elleryweld(at)aol.com



I am not trying to make anyone mad but have you ever tried to use Paper for a template working with Metal  I have been a Welder Fabricator most of my life and Paper does not work very well  other than to make drawings on 



  Ellery Batchelder Jr.



 --

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

  When reinstalling the H brace, all you need is to do is  locate the end rivet holes, and hold the H brace in place with clecos,  but you'll want to make sure you include your Lexan when you put your clecos  in.  

9)  All that's left is to drill each locating hole deep  enough into your boom tube with that 1/16" drillbit to where when you drill the  holes bigger the 1/8" drillbit doesn't wander.  If you've got a good, sharp  1/16" drillbit, you could probably go ahead and drill each hole all the way  through.

 

  Lexan may be an alternate for some cases where  paper might not work.  

 

  Just an idea I did  once........

 

Mike Welch

MkIII

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 i used something  similar.....   before building the first time i asked a  friend with  a mil to help by building me a jig, (any machine  shop should be able to help build the jig)      i had  him drill a line of holes 1/2 inch apart in a perfect line in a piece of 1/4  inch thick alum.   i would drill one hole then position my drill guide  over the piece with a cleco.    then using the guide would drill  the other end and fasten with a cleco.   then i would have a guide to  drill the rest of the  holes ...   all perfectly in  line.....  all perfectly spaced... and using the guide eliminated the  need for center punching migrating drills  etc.   when re  building a part....  just locate the first hole and use the  jig.    

  

 boyd young

 mkiii

   

   [quote][b]

Carl Tosh

Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Douglass,Kansas

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

I agree with  Ellery on the paper. I cut the old tube and sectioned it for the rivet location. Drilled the two end holes, clecoed it used the section as a template for the rest of the holes. I had to warp my new H section slightly to be able to use the old boom tube. Just opposite of what has been discussed, and cussed. My H section was very poorly fabricated by original builder.

  

 Carl Tosh Ultrastar Rebuilder, Micro Mong Builder Machinist, Welder, Millwright

  

 

--- On Thu, 6/24/10, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Ko lb-List: New guy with repair questions

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 12:34 AM



 I am not trying to make anyone mad but have you ever tried to use Paper for a template working with Metal  I have been a Welder Fabricator most of my life and Paper does not work very well  other than to make drawings on 



  Ellery Batchelder Jr.



 --

_________________
mongsterone

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