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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
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At 08:24 PM 6/26/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | I think it has to have a voltage applied at pin 7 continuously to
keep the speed brakes up. It's designed so that if the unit loses
power they fail to the retracted position.
|
This is an excellent topic for discussions of failure
mode effects analysis =AND= understand the simple-ideas
behind the system design goals.
A really important side note concerning the Precise Flight
product is that it's not a "speed brake" in the aerodynamic
sense of the phrase . . .
A speed brake is a means by which aerodynamic DRAG is
added to the mix of thrust-lift-mass-drag combination
that dictates airframe behavior/performance. Drag can
be and most often is added to the performance mix by
throwing large surface areas out into the slipstream.
I've participated in programs that crafted special
actuators to extend large panels out of aft
locations on the airplane where design goals called for
an increase in the airframe's total drag component
while having little or no effect on lift.
Large air transport aircraft will lift rather large
areas of aluminum from the top surface of the wing.
In cruising flight, only the outboard panels will
occasionally lift during roll control maneuvers. In
this mode, the panels are SPOILERS that reduce lift
on one wing at a time. Loss of lift augments rolling
moment offered by the ailerons.
However, during landing roll-out, one often sees
every square foot of aluminum through out into
the breeze with the obvious intent of making the
whole machine a very draggy aerodynamic shape where
flying efficiency is not important while slowing
down is most important.
The space shuttle has a bifurcated rudder that can
be simultaneously extend both to the right and left
of the vertical fin for the purpose of throwing out
some aerodynamic drag.
The Precise Flight product is the brainchild of on
Bill Thompson who was chief of flight test at Cessna
single engine division while I was a tech writer.
Bill was directly responsible for introducing me to
Ken Razak, former dean of engineering at Wichita
State who became my second most revered mentor,
business partner and friend with more than 40 years
of collaboration on interesting things. But that's
another story.
Bill's product first evolved on the Cessna 210
and was later approved for installation on a host
of TC aircraft. I was introduced to the device
in Kerrville, TX by a Mooney test pilot and later
on another Mooney by George Masey.
It was then that I was given to understand that
the Precise flight product is NOT A SPEED BRAKE.
It's a SPOILER. Design goals for this device call
for reducing lift on the wing while having very
little effect on total drag. The artfully installed
blades can be extended during a stabilized approach
to offer a profound effect on rate of descent
while having little effect on pitch angle or
indicated airspeed.
There are similar devices on the top of the wing
in a Beechjet that offer augmentation of tiny
ailerons for roll control in fight -OR- an increased
rate of descent when fully extended on both sides.
These also are NOT SPEED BRAKES. They might be extended
during a roll out for the purpose of killing lift
to increase weight on wheels and improve braking
by the tires . . . but their effect as aerodynamic
speed brakes is nil.
The reason why this distinction is important has
to do with proper and useful deployment of SPOILERS.
I'm working an accident case where a pilot reports
having extended his Precise Flight "speed brakes"
a few seconds before an off-airport landing. He
was under the mistaken understanding that they
would help slow things down before an un-planned
contact with the ground. In fact, the impact forces
were probably GREATER than if he had not extended
the SPOILERS at all. The net effect of extending the
Precise Flight paddles on top of the wing was to
INCREASE rate of descent to the ground.
So after understanding what these things are designed
to do for you, I'll suggest that its a really good
thing to make sure that under no circumstances
can they can extend when you don't want them to
and that they can always be retracted when they're
not needed . . . or their extension would increase
risks of bent airplanes or broken people.
When considering departures from the manufacture's
instructions, make sure that you're not crafting
a situation that increases risk of unintended
extension or loss of pilot control for that
extension. The system should probably include an
easily accessed power switch. Removal of power
from the system insures positive retraction
irrespective of what other switch becomes
stuck.
Itty-bitty switches on stick-grips are not renowned
for their robustness. Take care that your quest
for convenience does not increase risks for
un-intended consequences.
Bob . . .
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Valin
Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 31
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:36 am Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
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|
Hi Bob and everyone,
Thanks for the history of the Precise Flight Speedbrakes/Spoilers. Since they brand them “speed brakes” I’ve been using that term even though I know they are really spoilers. The accident scenario you described really brings to light how someone without a clear understanding of what they actually do could call for them at a bad time.
I think they can be easily misunderstood since even spoilers can perform as speed brakes. I like to think of them as lift/drag ratio reducers. As you point out, an aircraft designer can go after bumping up the drag side or lowering the lift side to give the pilot more aircraft control when high on energy and wanting less altitude and/or airspeed. Even as spoilers they can act like speed brakes since when deployed, lowering lift, one can increase the wing angle of attack to keep the same lift (hold same altitude rate) while getting higher drag at the new higher AOA, slowing the airplane down…
Anyway, your accident example has convinced me to label them as spoilers and not speed brakes.
The discussion has me reconsidering my decision to add the spoiler control to the joystick grips. But, let me summarize my rules for picking what’s on the stick.
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Actions required frequently
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Functions needed while it’s very inconvenient to remove hand from throttle
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>No functions that if accidentally activated would create a safety of flight issue
So these are my basic criteria for selecting what’s switches are on the joystick. Based on this, I’ve tentatively made these assignments:
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CB15FD.84EFAC40[/img]
For those who can’t see the graphic, I have:
Hat Switch: Pitch & Yaw Trim
Trigger: Radio Transmit
Lower Button: Alarm Mute
Upper Right Button: Autopilot On/Off Toggle
Upper Left Button: Spoilers Up/Down Toggle
I did not put flaps or gear on the stick since one usually only activates them twice during a typical cross country flight and if they were to be accidentally deployed when flying too fast it would damage the aircraft – violating strategy rule 3 above.
I’m thinking having the spoilers on the stick is a good option because the Lancair Legacy is a very low drag airframe making them very useful for descents, the Legacy can be easily landed with them deployed, and there is no speed limit on their deployment. With this discussion ongoing I have heard from a Legacy flyer with a spoiler switch on his throttle control and that he wishes he had a guard on it because it has been accidentally activated a few times. The good news from his experiences is that he’d even landed without realizing they were deployed and it was not an issue. I’m also checking with another Legacy flyer who has the control on his joystick to see if it’s been a problem for him or if he’d do it again. From earlier discussion with him he said he did it because the Mooney he used to fly had it that way and it was very convenient to toggle them when needed on descents.
Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion about the best way to design all this with aircraft operations and human factors in mind.
Even if I don’t do it this way, I’d still like to know the best way to design a circuit to toggle back and forth between two poles with a push button switch… J Anyone have any advice on that question?
Thanks,
Valin
--
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
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At 11:44 PM 6/26/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
|
My late-night contribution to this thread was hammered out
too quickly and after the 3rd straight, 14-hour day working
one of Dr. Dee's "mother of all garage sales". The organization,
syntax and typos in the posting left much to be desired.
Here's an updated version of the posting which is in much
better shape.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Speed_Brakes_vs_Spoilers.pdf
As always, comments and corrections welcome.
Bob . . .
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endspeed(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
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Hi Valin,
I would suggest putting them on the throttle. That is where they were on military aircraft I flew. The beauty of having them there is it is extremely easy to develop a habit pattern of activating the spoilers to retract WHENEVER you ask for full power. There are thumb switches that have existed for these production aircraft so I would think they would be available. See if you can find pictures of military aircraft like the A-4 whose throttle had that setup. As the throttle is advanced the thumb pushes the thumb switch forward to retract the spoilers and vice versa when low thrust high drag is needed. Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:34, "Valin & Allyson Thorn" <thorn(at)starflight.aero (thorn(at)starflight.aero)> wrote:
[quote]
Hi Bob and everyone,
Thanks for the history of the Precise Flight Speedbrakes/Spoilers. Since they brand them “speed brakes” I’ve been using that term even though I know they are really spoilers. The accident scenario you described really brings to light how someone without a clear understanding of what they actually do could call for them at a bad time.
I think they can be easily misunderstood since even spoilers can perform as speed brakes. I like to think of them as lift/drag ratio reducers. As you point out, an aircraft designer can go after bumping up the drag side or lowering the lift side to give the pilot more aircraft control when high on energy and wanting less altitude and/or airspeed. Even as spoilers they can act like speed brakes since when deployed, lowering lift, one can increase the wing angle of attack to keep the same lift (hold same altitude rate) while getting higher drag at the new higher AOA, slowing the airplane down…
Anyway, your accident example has convinced me to label them as spoilers and not speed brakes.
The discussion has me reconsidering my decision to add the spoiler control to the joystick grips. But, let me summarize my rules for picking what’s on the stick.
1. Actions required frequently
2. Functions needed while it’s very inconvenient to remove hand from throttle
3. No functions that if accidentally activated would create a safety of flight issue
So these are my basic criteria for selecting what’s switches are on the joystick. Based on this, I’ve tentatively made these assignments:
<image001.jpg>
For those who can’t see the graphic, I have:
Hat Switch: Pitch & Yaw Trim
Trigger: Radio Transmit
Lower Button: Alarm Mute
Upper Right Button: Autopilot On/Off Toggle
Upper Left Button: Spoilers Up/Down Toggle
I did not put flaps or gear on the stick since one usually only activates them twice during a typical cross country flight and if they were to be accidentally deployed when flying too fast it would damage the aircraft – violating strategy rule 3 above.
I’m thinking having the spoilers on the stick is a good option because the Lancair Legacy is a very low drag airframe making them very useful for descents, the Legacy can be easily landed with them deployed, and there is no speed limit on their deployment. With this discussion ongoing I have heard from a Legacy flyer with a spoiler switch on his throttle control and that he wishes he had a guard on it because it has been accidentally activated a few times. The good news from his experiences is that he’d even landed without realizing they were deployed and it was not an issue. I’m also checking with another Legacy flyer who has the control on his joystick to see if it’s been a problem for him or if he’d do it again. From earlier discussion with him he said he did it because the Mooney he used to fly had it that way and it was very convenient to toggle them when needed on descents.
Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion about the best way to design all this with aircraft operations and human factors in mind.
Even if I don’t do it this way, I’d still like to know the best way to design a circuit to toggle back and forth between two poles with a push button switch… J Anyone have any advice on that question?
Thanks,
Valin
--
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Bob McC
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
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|
Valin;
The simplest circuit to accomplish your request would be to use your SPST push button to switch coil power to a bi-stable relay and use the relay contacts to switch the power to whatever load you wish. Each push of the button will toggle the relay. The second item on this page (part number RLY7742) is an example of a 12VDC 15 amp DPDT bi-stable relay.
http://tinyurl.com/2ffvkur
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin & Allyson Thorn
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 2:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Hi Bob and everyone,
Thanks for the history of the Precise Flight Speedbrakes/Spoilers. Since they brand them “speed brakes” I’ve been using that term even though I know they are really spoilers. The accident scenario you described really brings to light how someone without a clear understanding of what they actually do could call for them at a bad time.
****** Big Clip**********
Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion about the best way to design all this with aircraft operations and human factors in mind.
Even if I don’t do it this way, I’d still like to know the best way to design a circuit to toggle back and forth between two poles with a push button switch… J Anyone have any advice on that question?
Thanks,
Valin
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting) |
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Valin
Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 31
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
|
|
Thanks Bob – looks like something along those lines would do the trick. These examples switch AC current with the DC control. I’m not sure if that matters or not. But, I figured relays that behave like this must be out there somewhere… Guess I need DPST bi-stable 24V DC relay.
Valin
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 4:34 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Valin;
The simplest circuit to accomplish your request would be to use your SPST push button to switch coil power to a bi-stable relay and use the relay contacts to switch the power to whatever load you wish. Each push of the button will toggle the relay. The second item on this page (part number RLY7742) is an example of a 12VDC 15 amp DPDT bi-stable relay.
http://tinyurl.com/2ffvkur
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin & Allyson Thorn
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 2:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Hi Bob and everyone,
Thanks for the history of the Precise Flight Speedbrakes/Spoilers. Since they brand them “speed brakes” I’ve been using that term even though I know they are really spoilers. The accident scenario you described really brings to light how someone without a clear understanding of what they actually do could call for them at a bad time.
****** Big Clip**********
Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion about the best way to design all this with aircraft operations and human factors in mind.
Even if I don’t do it this way, I’d still like to know the best way to design a circuit to toggle back and forth between two poles with a push button switch… J Anyone have any advice on that question?
Thanks,
Valin
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Valin
Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 31
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
|
|
Thanks Robert -- that would be nice if I didn’t already have a throttle quadrant that isn’t very conducive to adding a switch to it… See photo below.
Valin
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CB1626.1D5A3310[/img]
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Sultzbach
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 4:31 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Hi Valin,
I would suggest putting them on the throttle. That is where they were on military aircraft I flew. The beauty of having them there is it is extremely easy to develop a habit pattern of activating the spoilers to retract WHENEVER you ask for full power. There are thumb switches that have existed for these production aircraft so I would think they would be available. See if you can find pictures of military aircraft like the A-4 whose throttle had that setup. As the throttle is advanced the thumb pushes the thumb switch forward to retract the spoilers and vice versa when low thrust high drag is needed. Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:34, "Valin & Allyson Thorn" <thorn(at)starflight.aero (thorn(at)starflight.aero)> wrote:
[quote]
Hi Bob and everyone,
Thanks for the history of the Precise Flight Speedbrakes/Spoilers. Since they brand them “speed brakes” I’ve been using that term even though I know they are really spoilers. The accident scenario you described really brings to light how someone without a clear understanding of what they actually do could call for them at a bad time.
I think they can be easily misunderstood since even spoilers can perform as speed brakes. I like to think of them as lift/drag ratio reducers. As you point out, an aircraft designer can go after bumping up the drag side or lowering the lift side to give the pilot more aircraft control when high on energy and wanting less altitude and/or airspeed. Even as spoilers they can act like speed brakes since when deployed, lowering lift, one can increase the wing angle of attack to keep the same lift (hold same altitude rate) while getting higher drag at the new higher AOA, slowing the airplane down…
Anyway, your accident example has convinced me to label them as spoilers and not speed brakes.
The discussion has me reconsidering my decision to add the spoiler control to the joystick grips. But, let me summarize my rules for picking what’s on the stick.
1. Actions required frequently
2. Functions needed while it’s very inconvenient to remove hand from throttle
3. No functions that if accidentally activated would create a safety of flight issue
So these are my basic criteria for selecting what’s switches are on the joystick. Based on this, I’ve tentatively made these assignments:
<image001.jpg>
For those who can’t see the graphic, I have:
Hat Switch: Pitch & Yaw Trim
Trigger: Radio Transmit
Lower Button: Alarm Mute
Upper Right Button: Autopilot On/Off Toggle
Upper Left Button: Spoilers Up/Down Toggle
I did not put flaps or gear on the stick since one usually only activates them twice during a typical cross country flight and if they were to be accidentally deployed when flying too fast it would damage the aircraft – violating strategy rule 3 above.
I’m thinking having the spoilers on the stick is a good option because the Lancair Legacy is a very low drag airframe making them very useful for descents, the Legacy can be easily landed with them deployed, and there is no speed limit on their deployment. With this discussion ongoing I have heard from a Legacy flyer with a spoiler switch on his throttle control and that he wishes he had a guard on it because it has been accidentally activated a few times. The good news from his experiences is that he’d even landed without realizing they were deployed and it was not an issue. I’m also checking with another Legacy flyer who has the control on his joystick to see if it’s been a problem for him or if he’d do it again. From earlier discussion with him he said he did it because the Mooney he used to fly had it that way and it was very convenient to toggle them when needed on descents.
Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion about the best way to design all this with aircraft operations and human factors in mind.
Even if I don’t do it this way, I’d still like to know the best way to design a circuit to toggle back and forth between two poles with a push button switch… J Anyone have any advice on that question?
Thanks,
Valin
--
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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Bob McC
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: Push Button "Speed Brakes"? |
|
|
Valin;
You’re welcome. The 24V version would be part #RLY7443 4th item down on the link I sent previously. Also although they state these relays switch AC they work equally well on DC as the switching elements are mechanical micro switches. You can see this detail clearly if you view the photos on the linked page.
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin & Allyson Thorn
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:21 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Thanks Bob – looks like something along those lines would do the trick. These examples switch AC current with the DC control. I’m not sure if that matters or not. But, I figured relays that behave like this must be out there somewhere… Guess I need DPST bi-stable 24V DC relay.
Valin
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 4:34 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Valin;
The simplest circuit to accomplish your request would be to use your SPST push button to switch coil power to a bi-stable relay and use the relay contacts to switch the power to whatever load you wish. Each push of the button will toggle the relay. The second item on this page (part number RLY7742) is an example of a 12VDC 15 amp DPDT bi-stable relay.
http://tinyurl.com/2ffvkur
Bob McC
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin & Allyson Thorn
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 2:35 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Push Button "Speed Brakes"?
Hi Bob and everyone,
Thanks for the history of the Precise Flight Speedbrakes/Spoilers. Since they brand them “speed brakes” I’ve been using that term even though I know they are really spoilers. The accident scenario you described really brings to light how someone without a clear understanding of what they actually do could call for them at a bad time.
****** Big Clip**********
Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion about the best way to design all this with aircraft operations and human factors in mind.
Even if I don’t do it this way, I’d still like to know the best way to design a circuit to toggle back and forth between two poles with a push button switch… J Anyone have any advice on that question?
Thanks,
Valin
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_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting) |
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