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Removing ethanol from gasoline
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.



In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline without 

ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive away without 

any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon cans, but buying 

the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would make that difficult.



I have read everything I can on the subject on the Internet and have 

corresponded with a few of you online.



Here is what I came up with. Last week I bought a 6-1/2 gallon carboy used 

for making beer. I put 1 quart of water in the carboy and marked a line at 

the top of the water. I then poured 5-1/2 gallons of high-test gasohol into 

the jug. The pouring action stimulates the ethanol to begin separation from 

the mix. After awhile the water-ethanol has separated from the mix and I 

mark a new line that indicates the new level of the bottom of cleaned 

gasoline. I use a siphon to siphon the cleaned gasoline off the top of the 

water/ethanol leaving a gallon or so of good gas to avoid siphoning up any 

water. (Note I do NOT pour the out this gas/water/alcohol from the jug.) I 

can continue pouring gasohol into the carboy and the process starts all over 

again. After a gallon or two of water/ethanol builds up, I siphon the 

water/ethanol from the bottom of the jug and add a little more water.



I pour this cleaned gas into my plane through a Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter 

Funnel, which is supposed to remove any remaining water. (I found no 

detectable water in the filter after pouring 10 gallons)



I have run this so far about 50/50 with avgas I had in my tank.



I have only flown the one time a couple days ago for more than an hour with 

no problems. Time will tell if problems develop.



I am NOT endorsing this process for others but only describing what I am 

doing.



Pete



Kitfox III SN 1000



912



Grove

marwynne(at)windstream.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Did you think of how effected the Octane Rating ?   Just a concern.   The ethanol was add in place of other octane boosters.

---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

NOW I understand why ethanol-free gas costs so much more at the pump! 

 

Marco Menezes N99KX

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

Hersey, Michigan

 

do not archive



--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:

From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>

Subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 11:43 AM




Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.



In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline without ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive away without any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon cans, but buying the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would make that difficult

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:17 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

My 912 is an older lower compression engine.  Regular unleaded car gas runs 

just fine so that when hi-test looses a little octane no problem.



Pete

---

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Good point Marco!  Imagine the size of the carboy  they use.

  

 Pete

  

 do not archive.

 [quote]   ---

Vic Baker

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Carson City, Nevada

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Take care, Pete.  The ethanol replaces MTBE which brings the octane number 

back into spec.  You probably will not hear engine detonation (pinging) due 

to all the other noise.  Burned pistons and valves could be the result. 

Especially if your Rotax is the 912S.



Here's what I'm presently doing:  If the premium fuel has no more that 5% 

ethanol I go ahead and use it,  so far no problems.  (my fuel tanks are 2003 

vintage and the fuel lines are now SAE J30R9)  If the fuel contains more 

than 5% ethanol I add 100LL as needed to bring the percentage back to 5%. 

Decalin additive is used with the 100LL and oil changes are at 25 hrs.



Hope this helps.

Vic



Vic Baker

S7 912S Warp

Carson City, Nv

---

_________________
Vic Baker
Series 7
Carson City, Nevada

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Pete it sounds to me like you are doing things properly.  The next step

would be to reduce the amount of AVGAS in your mix just in case your engine

can't take the lower octane level fuel.  Being the CR of the Rotax engines

isn't extreme I doubt you will have any problems.



BTW distil our leftover water alcohol mix to around 50C  for fuel for your

fondu warmer or camp stove.  Other leftovers will probably make good weed

killer and is bio degradeable.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

How’s that...  Ethanol is added to the gas as it leaves the distributor...  It doesn’t have to be separated... Just not added in the first place.  The ethanol in fact costs more than 4 times the cost of the gas to grow and process.  That means that gas not contaminated with ethanol should be considerably cheaper.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes

 Sent: July 8, 2010 1:39 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline  

  

              

NOW I understand why ethanol-free gas costs so much   more at the pump!    

      

    

      

Marco Menezes N99KX   

      

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch   

      

Hersey, Michigan   

      

    

      

do not archive

   

   --- On Thu, 7/8/10, Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>   wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>

   Subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 11:43 AM      

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Pete   Christensen" <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>

   

   Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.

   

   In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline without   ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive away without   any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon cans, but buying the   cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would make that difficult.

   

   I have read everything I can on the subject on the Internet and have   corresponded with a few of you online.

   

   Here is what I came up with. Last week I bought a 6-1/2 gallon carboy used   for making beer. I put 1 quart of water in the carboy and marked a line at   the top of the water. I then poured 5-1/2 gallons of high-test gasohol into   the jug. The pouring action stimulates the ethanol to begin separation from   the mix. After awhile the water-ethanol has separated from the mix and I mark   a new line that indicates the new level of the bottom of cleaned gasoline. I   use a siphon to siphon the cleaned gasoline off the top of the water/ethanol   leaving a gallon or so of good gas to avoid siphoning up any water. (Note I do   NOT pour the out this gas/water/alcohol from the jug.) I can continue pouring   gasohol into the carboy and the process starts all over again. After a gallon   or two of water/ethanol builds up, I siphon the water/ethanol from the bottom   of the jug and add a little more water.

   

   I pour this cleaned gas into my plane through a Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter   Funnel, which is supposed to remove any remaining water. (I found no   detectable water in the filter after pouring 10 gallons)

   

   I have run this so far about 50/50 with avgas I had in my tank.

   

   I have only flown the one time a couple days ago for more than an hour with   no problems. Time will tell if problems develop.

   

   I am NOT endorsing this process for others but only describing what I am   doing.

   

   Pete

   

   Kitfox III ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"   target=_blank>http://www.matronicbsp; --> h=                        --> 

   

   

   

   

      

   	
   

         

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Thanks Noel.  You are one who knows the meaning of experimental aircraft. 

My 912 being older and of lower compression requires only 86 octane. I plan 

to burn only "cleaned" gasoline if it works out.  Maybe I can modify the 

home heating unit to burn ethanol in the winter or sell it to model airplane 

guys.

Pete

---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Hi Pete,



If you are running a 912 series engine then Rotax has in writing that 10% ethanol is fine and people use much higher amounts than that around the world. Just bring your fuel system up to par for the ethanol and save yourself a lot of time and effort. Ethanol won't hurt your 912 Rotax.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Lion8

Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 31

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

I've been flying a Rotax 503 for 10 years now, using 10% ethanol gasoline with no problems. I have a Polyproplene fuel  tank. Aircraft Spruce sel'ls the 'Blue' fuel line that is Alcohol resistant. I change these lines every year along with the fuel filter.Cheap insurance.  I fly between 25 to 50hr a year.  I also had an authorized  Rotax mechanic tear the engine down to inspect the entire engine and to replace ALL organic materials in the engine, Carbs and fuel filter with alcohol resistant materials. 500hrs and no issues. I also syphon out all the fuel if it sits in the tank for more than two weeks. Syphoning out the tank allows all the small particles in the bottom of the tank to be drawn out.    

Tom McDowell-NJ 

EAA-216  

  

---

_________________
Tom (Lion8), Currently Flying an LSA Trike
Rebuilding a Kitfox IV Speedster
Southern New Jersey

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Pete,

  Roger is absolutely correct, the alcohol is fine for your 912 (up to 10 percent) I am assuming the reason you are removing it is because of your tanks. My tanks are also the old formulation fiberglas coated with Kreem and I am also concerned about alcohol. I only have one station here in my area that carries no ethanol premium. When he goes then I will have to use ethanol fuel (unless I go to a boat dock or the gas distributor selling fuel for off road farm equipment... a possibility)

  As you are adding avgas to the mix, you are adding back some of the octane you removed but what are you left with? Do you have the needed 87 for your engine 87? I know on my engine if I use regular that is a little old I get kickback on shutdown and the prop rotates backward (no good) Burning premium or adding octane booster (Lucas brand) will stop this from happening. I now burn premium in the hot summer months. (plus put a block of ice on the engine to cool it down for start)

  If you have detonation from burning low octane fuel, you will never hear it, but your engine will certainly feel it.

  My two cents

                                                       Dick Maddux

                                                       Fox 4, 912UL

                                                       Milton,Fl

  

  [quote][b]

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:52 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Thanks Roger and Tom, but (older fiberglass tanks) + ethanol = crash.  QED



Pete

---

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:01 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Dick,  

  

 So far I get no kickback.  I still have some av gas in  the tank but as I continue to fly I will eventually have clean gasoline.  I  can't find clean gas less than 1+ hour away by car at a boat dock.  If I  had floats I could taxi right up to the pump since it's only 1/2 hour flying  time.  I think Texas government is a bunch of horses asses allowing us to  burn corn instead of sweet Texas crude. Thanks Damn-acrats.

  

 Pete

  

 [quote]   ---

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Pete,



I found that the ethanol and water that settles out will flow through the

fuel funnels that are supposed to trap water. You might want to try that

with your Funnel.



BJ

N154K



[quote] Good point Marco!  Imagine the size of the carboy they use.



 Pete



 do not archive.

   ---

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

That's something to think about.  I probably need a little off airport 

landing practice.



Pete



---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Doesn't have to make sense, Noel. The government and oil companies are involved.

Â 



Marco Menezes N99KX



Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch



Hersey, Michigan



Â 



do not archive



--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Subject: RE: Removing ethanol from gasoline

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 4:26 PM

Howâ€™s that...Â  Ethanol is added to the gas as it leaves the distributor...Â  It doesnâ€™t have to be separated... Just not added in the first place.Â  The ethanol in fact costs more than 4 times the cost of the gas to grow and process.Â  That means that gas not contaminated with ethanol should be considerably cheaper.

Â 

Noel

Â 



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes

Sent: July 8, 2010 1:39 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Â 



NOW I understand whyÂ ethanol-free gas costs so much more at the pump! 



Â 



Marco Menezes N99KX



Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch



Hersey, Michigan



Â 



do not archive



--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> wrote:

From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>

Subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 11:43 AM






Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.



In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline without ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive away without any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon cans, but buying the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would make that difficult

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Hi All,



My tanks are Kreem Wiessed and that is just fine for alcohol. There are over 1500 Flight Design CT's flying world wide and about 320 here in the states. They are all kreem Wiess coated. Kreem Weiss is impervious to alcohol and just about anything else. It is one of the top tank coatings on the market. If you have a tank you are worried about them Kreem it and don't worry.



p.s.

I never had much luck with MR. Funnel taking water out either. Your Rotax will burn a certain amount of water in the fuel so long as it doesn't become excessive. That's why I don't worry about a little water in the fuel or using ethanol. That said I do live in Tucson, AZ where the humidity is usually only 10-15% and we only get 12" of rain a year. There are thousands of people who live in a humid rainy climate with their Rotax's around the world and don't have any major issues with just humidity.

p.s.s.



Hi Dick,

 How are you doing? Hope your staying out of the heat?

Why don't you use 91 oct. all year and not worry?

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

Multiple folks with expertise in the commercial fuel science industry that

I spoke with, who would not endorse the process of removing the ethanol

from auto fuel to use the cleaned gas in an aircraft, when pressed, said

that if I started with "cleaned" premium auto fuel and adding less than

25% leaded (100LL) avgas the result would have over 87 octane.



What has been missed in this thread so far, is the potential for settleout

to occur in a planes gas tank. I have had it occur in other applications.

And the engines would not run on the settleout. Probably not a problem in

dry climate from condensation and in planes with gas tank caps that

prevent rain water from getting in.



BJ

N154K



BJ

N154K



[quote] 

 <marwynne(at)windstream.net>



 Did you think of how effected the Octane Rating ?   Just a concern.   The

 ethanol was add in place of other octane boosters.

 ---

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: Removing ethanol from gasoline

I'll Kreem my tank when I need a recover. Or sooner if you'll come help 

Roger.

Pete

---

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