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Flying with the doors off

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Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

That last message about flying with the doors off interests me. It runs about 90-95 degrees here now (sucks !) and I too would like to fly without my doors however the area right below my turtle deck is uncovered(no interior fabric) I thought about having a piece made up with velcro hold downs to cover that area so air would not come in the doors go back in there causing drag and pressurising the aft fuselage area. Is there normally a cover there ? How about pressure on the turtledeck itself ?

                                            Dick Maddux

                                            Fox 4

                                            Milton,Fl

  [quote][b]

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

My model IV is open from the seats to the tail except for a small baggage

"sack behind the seats.



In 400 plus hours (probably more than half with either both doors or just

the pilot's door off), the only problem I have noticed is some buffet of

the small "triagular" windows on the sides behind the doors. The original

window material had become somewhat brittle with age and developed cracks.

I replaced both with new from Kitfox. They seem to be doing well. I tried

a custom made window that apparently had the wrong clear material and it

failed quickly.



I normally fly relatively low and slow. I suspect if I powered up I would

see maybe 10 knot slower cruise, not sure. I have not been surprised by

any handling problems with the doors off.



Mic on headset breaks squelch a lot with doors off, even if I reposition

the boom up  and out of the way. My communications probably have a fair

amount of background wind noise on the other end, although no one has

mentioned it.



I carry charts folded to show the area that I'm flying in but have to keep

them held down on the passengers seat with a camera gear and PLB bag. I

suspect trying to open or unfold them would be difficult (an

understatement.)



Passengers seem to feel safer with the passenger side door in place.



Photography is great without door "glass" and framework in the way.



Anyone with other thoughts on the matter, please chime in. I'm Curious.



Bj

N154K



 	  Quote: 	
		   about 90-95 degrees here now (sucks !) and I too would like to fly without

 my

 doors however the area right below my turtle deck is uncovered(no interior

 fabric) I thought about having a piece made up with velcro hold downs to

 cover

 that area so air would not come in the doors go back in there causing drag

 and pressurising the aft fuselage area. Is there normally a cover there ?

 How about pressure on the turtledeck itself ?

                                            Dick Maddux

                                            Fox 4

                                            Milton,Fl

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

I made a cover...called a "tonneau cover" back in the hot rodding  

days (it covered the open deck of pickups, and the open cockpit of  

roadsters)...to keep the cold air from the fuselage from chilling the  

back of my neck in the winter. I velcroed it to the top of the seat  

back, and the rest of it is held in place by the turtledeck.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 1007.1 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1000 hrs. plus...

On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   That last message about flying with the doors off interests me. It  

 runs about 90-95 degrees here now (sucks !) and I too would like to  

 fly without my doors however the area right below my turtle deck is  

 uncovered(no interior fabric) I thought about having a piece made  

 up with velcro hold downs to cover that area so air would not come  

 in the doors go back in there causing drag and pressurising the aft  

 fuselage area. Is there normally a cover there ? How about pressure  

 on the turtledeck itself ?

                                            Dick Maddux

                                            Fox 4

                                            Milton,Fl

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:22 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

Thanks for your replies BJ and Lynn. My TR3's have tonneau covers so I know what you are referring to Lynn. Bj my model 4 is uncovered in the same area as yours. Good to know because there are no Kitfoxes in my area to compare to. I think I will try it with no doors. I tried that one time in a Cessna 120 and at max power barely made it around the pattern to land as there was so much drag. I didn't do that again! I don't think I made it above 500 ft!

                                                Dick Maddux

                                                Fox 4

                                                Milton,Fl  

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

Dick-

I forgot to mention that my cover is made of a slightly stretchy  

leather-look vinyl stuff, with the fabric backing.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 1007.1 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1000 hrs. plus...



On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for your replies BJ and Lynn. My TR3's have tonneau covers  

 so I know what you are referring to Lynn. Bj my model 4 is  

 uncovered in the same area as yours. Good to know because there are  

 no Kitfoxes in my area to compare to. I think I will try it with no  

 doors. I tried that one time in a Cessna 120 and at max power  

 barely made it around the pattern to land as there was so much  

 drag. I didn't do that again! I don't think I made it above 500 ft!

                                                Dick Maddux

                                                Fox 4

                                                Milton,Fl

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

I've flown with the doors open a few times. (Bubble)    Never considered taking them off.

  

 Pete

  

 [quote]   ---

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

I used to have a Kitfox II, and am still allowed to fly it occassionally.  Due to the temperatures here in the Caribbean (Puerto Rico), I seldom close the doors to fly.  Instead of removing the doors, they are kept open with gas struts.  I ordered a kit, and I think it is still availble.

  

 Go ahead and give it a try.  You will like it!

  

 Jose



 

   From: "Catz631(at)aol.com" <Catz631(at)aol.com>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 10:20:21 AM

Subject: Re: Flying with the doors off



 Thanks for your replies BJ and Lynn. My TR3's have tonneau covers so I know what you are referring to Lynn. Bj my model 4 is uncovered in the same area as yours. Good to know because there are no Kitfoxes in my area to compare to. I think I will try it with no doors. I tried that one time in a Cessna 120 and at max power barely made it around the pattern to land as there was so much drag. I didn't do that again! I don't think I made it above 500 ft!

                                                Dick Maddux

                                                Fox 4

                                                Milton,Fl  

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

KeysFox

Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: Flying with the doors off

I have flown my model IV out of Page Arizona at 4,200 feet alot in hot

weather, density altutude probably well over 5,500 feet. With two adults

(maybe 400 lbs) plus 10 gallons fuel, using a 912 80 hp, and with at least

one door off the Ground run and climb were still very acceptable.



In cold weather I frequently open a door inflight to take pictures. It

stays up without assistance, no strut. Plane seems to handle OK with door

up.



Got to love my Kitfox



BJ

N154K

[quote] I've flown with the doors open a few times. (Bubble)   Never considered

 taking them off.



 Pete



   ---

_________________
B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: Flying with the doors off

I fly doors on because I really don't like to get wet on landings...

Floats...  But I do open the doors for picture taking.  Just make sure all

turns are well coordinated and slips are a definite no-no.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

Slips are to shut the doors.    ;o)   Larry



---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: Flying with the doors off

In a slammin' big way!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

Try it , you will be surprized. I don't like reaching out over that big hole 

to reach the handle on the bottom of the door ,so I have learned that if I 

am a bit gentle with the controls I can actually swing the door down quite 

gentley and grab the handle/latch at the bottom and lock it.

        Larry Huntley,4-1200 ,Soob, AMAX, 550hrs



---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

FlyboyTR

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Flying with the doors off

Dick,

We've never removed the doors on the Vixen (Series 5), but occasionally fly with one or both doors open (opened/closed during flight). I have experienced no problems and I do not exceed 90 MPH indicated with them open.



I also built a simple latching system that opens the bottom of the door about 1".  That provides an amazing amount of air flow in the cockpit and is a LOT more peaceful than flying with the doors open.  I can also fly at any speed with them in this configuration.  I probably should take some pictures of the latch and post it here!



Travis

_________________
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
www.enotam.net (My Flying Info Website)

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Flying with the doors off

FlyboyTR wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I also built a simple latching system that opens the bottom of the door about 1". That provides an amazing amount of air flow in the cockpit and is a LOT more peaceful than flying with the doors open. I can also fly at any speed with them in this configuration. I probably should take some pictures of the latch and post it here! 	




Yes, please do.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:14 am Post subject: Flying with the doors off

I also have a simple system for holding the door slightly open.  It involves 

a nylon rope.  Of course it's a bitch to untie when I want to get out.



Pete



---

FlyboyTR

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Flying with the doors off

I'll take pictures and start a new thread (Dick....sorry for hijacking this thread!)  



Travis

_________________
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
www.enotam.net (My Flying Info Website)

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Flying with the doors off

I almost never fly with doors on.  There is always more clothes to put on.  I only put them on to give rides to the less adventurous.  I also fly doorless professionally so I am quite used to the added work of keeping everything where it belongs and I sit on my map if I need one for the flight.  I have a cover behind the seats but have flown doors off without it with no issues although I did not do slips on that flight.  I have slipped the hell out of the thing with no doors also with no issues, always fun to slip towards a passenger if they take jokes well.  I am sure that it affects cruise flight but take offs seem pretty unaffected as my 150' solo and 250' dual short field takeoffs seem the same. 



WOW this is making me miss my plane right now

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Flying with the doors off

I fly with the door or doors open all the time.   Never had an issue during normal flight or hard slips.  I have heavier gas struts on my doors (45#) and have never had one close on me even during a hard slip.  Turtle deck has never tried to come off either.  I would think it would take alot more to rip that deck off than a slip as there are quite a few camlocs holding it down.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

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