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rlborger(at)mac.com
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 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: ELSA max speed solution. |
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Bud,
If you can get the stall speed down to the required 45 KTS, there is another solution to the max speed issue. You can "derate" the engine. State in your operating limitations that you are limited to 5800 RPM (or whatever max RPM is for the 912 or 912S) to, say, 5 or 10 minutes for takeoff and climb. After that, the operator is limited to a max of 5500 RPM or whatever is necessary to hold the speed down to 120 KTS max. This provides full power for takeoff and initial climb and provides your 120 KT cruise at 3 GPH. No need to resort to adding extra special drag to mess up the Europa's wonderful efficiency.
So you build a tri-gear (or conventional gear) with Rotax 912 or 912S and a Warp Drive ground adjustable prop. Build it as light as possible for best useful load. License it for 1320 lbs max gross. Use your VGs and flap fiddling to get the stall below 45 KTS and derate the engine for whatever power provides you with 120 KT cruise.
Just like that you have an Amateur Built Experimental that meets LSA requirements.
Just my two bits. Fire away!
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=60232
http://www.biplaneforumgallery.com/index.php?cat=10046
Europa Flying!
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jul 20, 2010, at 12:49, Bud Yerly wrote:
| Quote: | To all.
N12AY is a Classic Trigear placarded GW 1320, has completed most of it's test flights. After 4 months of testing, I will have a complete write up soon. Note, if your Europa has been registered above 1320 lbs, it does not qualify for an E- LSA ever. For those of you who have 1300 lb registrations on your flying Europa Classic, convert it to a fixed trigear if needed, add a fixed pitch prop, and if you started with a reasonable empty weight, add some vortex generators and do some tweaking and it will allow the plane to meet the criteria of 45 Kt stall, and 120 Kts at max continuous power. (Dirty up your wheel pants to keep the speed down if necessary). The XS wing is nearly 50 lbs heavier, slightly larger, and should also be able to meet the stall speed. Problem is the empty weight is a bit high on the XS unless you are a weight zealot. If you are a weight zealot, the XS should be eligible provided you have not already registered it's gross weight as over 1320. Darn those rules.
By adding vortex generators (and I prefer adjusting the flap rig slightly down), the aircraft at 1320 lbs stalls at 45 Kts. The handling of the plane with the VGs is superb at low speed. 18 degrees deck angle, flaps up at 50 Kts indicated (Actual corrected speed is 47Kts.) Burble starts at 50, the nose starts wandering about 47, the heavy buffet begins at 45, break shortly afterwards. VGs run from the tip to 24 inches short of the wing root, and 7% chord seems to work well. Max continuous power setting speed runs with my old 914 power, wing speed kit and wheel pants only drops my top end 2-3 knots, as the Warp Drive prop is set at 29.5 degrees for 5200 static on full 38 inches power on the ground runs. You can imagine the rpm really drops when pulling it out of turbo. A 912 with 2.2 gearbox or 912S should be perfect for the LSA.
The XS style pitot static is a problem, and I had to install cockpit static to get accurate readings. I've spent a lot of time flying speed runs, experimenting with pitot tubes etc., trying to calibrate my speed indications at these low speeds. The XS pitot is quite good down to about 65 Kts indicated (indicating 3 knots high) and is dead on above 80 (I am using a Winter A/S indicator and a Blue Mountain for indications). Speed runs are done with GPS and timed runs.
I am now tweaking the flaps a tiny bit as it makes 45 knots quite controllable. Actually with a little tweak of the trailing edge, the plane would only need flaps for drag.
More to follow. Weather and workload are slowing me down.
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: ELSA max speed solution. |
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<<flap fiddling to get the stall below 45 KTS>>
Has anyone tried that? What, for example, does 30 degrees or 35 degrees of flap confer in terms of any stall speed reduction? (Non-monowheel a/c only)
Duncan Mcf.
[quote] ---
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: ELSA max speed solution. |
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Ivan tried 30deg a long time ago, dropped the idea because there was no aileron control at the angle of attack at very low speeds. Tips were stalled
Graham
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010 8:35:12
Subject: Re: ELSA max speed solution.
<<flap fiddling to get the stall below 45 KTS>>
Has anyone tried that? What, for example, does 30 degrees or 35 degrees of flap confer in terms of any stall speed reduction? (Non-monowheel a/c only)
Duncan Mcf.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: ELSA max speed solution. |
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Hi Michel
Christoph once told me he was trying to avoid making any of Ivan's "mistakes". I suspect he found one or two of his own though! 
Graham
From: mau11 <mau11(at)free.fr>
To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010 12:39:15
Subject: Re: Re: ELSA max speed solution.
 DIV { MARGIN:0px;} _filtered { } _filtered { font-family:Verdana; } _filtered { } _filtered {margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;} P.MsoNormal { TEXT-JUSTIFY:inter-ideograph;TEXT-ALIGN:justify;MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";FONT-SIZE:10.5pt;} LI.MsoNormal { TEXT-JUSTIFY:inter-ideograph;TEXT-ALIGN:justify;MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";FONT-SIZE:10.5pt;} DIV.MsoNormal { TEXT-JUSTIFY:inter-ideograph;TEXT-ALIGN:justify;MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:"Times New Roman";FONT-SIZE:10.5pt;} A:link { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR:blue;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} A:visited { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR:purple;TEXT-DECORATION:underline;} SPAN.EmailStyle17 { FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;COLOR:windowtext;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;TEXT-DECORATION:none;} DIV.Section1 { } UNKNOWN { FONT-SIZE:10pt;} BLOCKQUOTE { MARGIN-TOP:0px;MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:2em;} OL { MARGIN-TOP:0px;MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;} UL { MARGIN-TOP:0px;MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;} Hi Graham,
I agree totally, for this reason on the MCR they installed a special wingtip to delayed stall.
It is the same thing on many others aircrafts.
Michel
21-07-2010
mau11
De ： GRAHAM SINGLETON
Date/heure ： 21-07-2010 09:51:48
A ： europa-list
Cc ：
Sujet ： Re: ELSA max speed solution.
Ivan tried 30deg a long time ago, dropped the idea because there was no aileron control at the angle of attack at very low speeds. Tips were stalled
Graham
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010 8:35:12
Subject: Re: Europa-List: ELSA max speed solution.
<<flap fiddling to get the stall below 45 KTS>>
Has anyone tried that? What, for example, does 30 degrees or 35 degrees of flap confer in terms of any stall speed reduction? (Non-monowheel a/c only)
Duncan Mcf.
| Quote: | http:/rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">htt========================
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[quote][b]
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