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New 701 and 582

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Phil

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: New 701 and 582

Hello all,



I've been haunting the list for a bit.  Not a lot of traffic lately, but the archives are helpful.



I've recently finished my training and gotten my Sport license.  I've been thinking about building a plane for longer than I care to admit (I think I must be some kind of expert on at least the variety and types of homebuilt aircraft), but two particular options have stayed at the top of my list for a very long time: a Pietenpol or a CH701.  Obviously, I'm interested in low and slow.  In fact, I'd prefer around a 70mph cruise.  I've flown several times in Cubs, and I very much like how slowly they trundle over the ground, giving one time to see everything (I'm an aerial sightseer at heart).  I've flown in a ppc, and would probably just get one of those if I could get over the fact that you're flying a series of air-filled fabric tubes, and there was some way around the ridiculous setup and takedown process.  



Anyway, I flew in my first CH701 about a week ago, and it was a lovely airplane in every way.  I really like most of its features (the shorter and more stable wing, the metal construction, the wonderful control feel, etc).  The only thing that pulls me toward the Piet is the lower cost and the open cockpit (which is both nice and a disadvantage at the same time).  But I'm under no illusions as to how long it would take to build a Piet from scratch.  So, there's the cost issue.



Which, finally, brings me to the point of this post.  (Just wanted to introduce myself a bit and give some background.)  



I understand the economics of the 912 80hp engine (with it's great TBO) and 4-stroke niceness.  But with the cost of the kit, the cost of even a used lowish-time 912 might be out of my range (if I could find a good one).  A low-time 582, on the other hand, looks good, price-wise, except for that short TBO, and the 2-stroke worries.



I know Heintz designed the 701 for a 582, but I'm thinking that was a lighter (smaller?) plane.  As I've said, I'm not looking for fast cruise performance.  Will the 582 work well on the current kit?  Are there concerns?  Would I have to worry more about engine outs?  



Thanks for any insights you can offer.

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: New 701 and 582

I've flown 300 hrs in an earlier 701 with the 582.  pros and cons.

But, in making your decision, compare apples with apples---- would you put 

the 582 in a Piet?



---

Phil

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

No, I wouldn't.  I'm pretty sure I'd put in a Corvair engine in the Piet (but it's too heavy for the CH701).  I'm not sure what that shows me, though.  



You've got a lot of time with yours.  What are the pros and cons you mention?  And you say yours is an earlier 701.  Would the 582 work on the current 701 the same as on yours?

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: New 701 and 582

if you are thinking "Corvair"----- why not Corvair powered Ch 750.

---

Phil

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

Economics.  What I would save on the engine building the 750 with a Corvair, I'd spend on the kit.  It's quite a bit more expensive, and doesn't offer much more payload.  And, like I said, I'm looking for slow, so the faster cruise for the 750 is actually a drawback for me.  But I'll look at it some more.



Still very interested to hear the pros and cons of the 582 on the current 701 kit.    Since you have so many hours on yours, your insight into it would be great!



It's not that I'm wedded to any particular engine.  The Corvair conversion is interesting to me, as it seems to be a good application of auto engines for flying, and the price is good.  If I had my druthers, I'd probably hang an A-65 on whatever I built.  I can do that with the Piet, but, again, the A65 is too heavy for the 701.  



So, if I build the 701, then it seems like my real engine options (without exploring some less well-tried and supported options that I see some people are doing but that I don't feel qualified to try) are the 80hp 912 (expensive), the 582 (much better price, but 2-stroke, low TBO and concerns over performance), or possibly the VW (which I have lots of concerns about).   



I've looked at the archives, and searched on the web, but I don't find much info on this particular topic (582 in current 701).



The Zenith guys are all at Oshkosh (as probably at least some of the list folks are....sigh....), but I'll call them in a couple of weeks and see what they have to say.  Just thought it would be worth asking here as well.



Thanks.

dlorrzen701(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: New 701 and 582

Phil, a Continental A65,C-75,or a C-85 is not out of the question for the 701. You can go light and leave off the starter and alternator or go with some light weight accessories. Here is a Youtube video with an A65 on a 701. I got an e-mail from the owner of the plane and he cruises at 70 mph.



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJsvDkXrPIo&feature=related



David L. Orr

Building a Zenith 701 with a C85. http://www.eaa430.org/projects/orr/orr.htm

Phil

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

Hmmmm, I might could be talked into hand propping.  What's the weight of an A65 without those addons?  Wikipedia says 170 lbs.  



Do you know of anyone else who's built a 701 with an A65 or other Continental?  I see you're building one with a C85.  What weight is your engine?  I'd like to talk to that guy in the video.

Phil

Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 10

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

Okay, I've been mulling over the options and doing some research on A65/C75 options for the 701.  Just to help me make more informed decisions, I have one more question.  I've been keeping my eye open for a used 912UL (80 hp) and haven't seen ANY for some time.  This is discouraging, of course.  It also means I have no idea what a lowish-mid time 912UL sells for.  What is the price range for these, if they turn up?

jetboy

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

Phil,

       The plans (and ZAC website) state the range of engines and weights suitable for the current (1100lbs)  CH701.



I think that includes a 65hp 582. I did once fly in the original (960lbs) that had a 532, and it had plenty of power for the mission but would be short on longevity - I have already owned 2 aircraft with 503 and wouldnt wish to go back to the constant fixes and overhauls.



I put together my 701 in 2004 and used the 2200 Jabiru. Had a leak on 2 valveseats at 310 hrs which was relatively minor. Thats still longer than the crank of a 582 is supposed to last. It is very suitable for the 701 although I have to stow everything up front to keep off the aft CG limit, which is good because it allows full fuel (85 litres) plus two medium size crew and a couple of toothbrushes to be carried.



Like any aircraft, once over the design weights, handling and margins rapidly deteriorate, remembering the wing area probably hasnt changed from the 880 lbs original with a 503 



Ralph

_________________
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

Phil,

The Fly Corvair engine is220 to  225 lbs Hand prop version is 205ish. Put on Aluminum cylinders and you get 190 to 193 lbs, take off the harmonic balancer and you loose 5 more. Add 3 to 5 lbs for the 5th bearing or non for Bradys crank.  Brady also has a few more weight reducing items on his site.It is not an A65 or a C85  but then you can rebuild it cheap and you get a 100 hp direct drive air cooled engine and it doe not mean a home mortgage to buy it. Resist the urge to hang crap from the panel and you will save even more.



I think if you keep watching you will see pretty cool things out of the Corvair in the next few years.



Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: New 701 and 582

I need to add, if I were starting right now I'd go with the 750 and the Corvair. The thing came out 6 months after I made my first plans built part. Unfortunately I was way into the process of dies , forms and such for the 701. 



On another note I met the American Savannah guy  at Oshkosh, I had my Zenith shirt on!!!! Anyway he did talk to me after awhile, looks like they are almost completely getting away from slats? He had the wide body version with the VG wing there. Didn't seem to have a booth, only his airplane in the homebuilt area and laser printed brochures. 



Kevin

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