Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

New Z-8 drawing

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation

about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months

ago have prompted a new Z-figure.



http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z08A-PRELIMINARY.pdf



Design goals include but are not limited to



Fuseblock-friendly design (crowbar ov protection

replaced with new field disconnect relay system.



Two layer electrical system similar to that crafted

in Z-13/8.



No practical limit to the size of the aux alternator.

Anything from the SD-20 on up can be adapted to this

architecture.



Single battery.



This architecture seems well suited to electrically

dependent engines where demand for energy exceeds

what an SD-8 can supply. The two-layer architecture

(as opposed to single-layer like Z-12) offers a way

to make the majority of the ship's electrical system

completely cold while maintaining engine operations.



I'm still pondering the ingredients that might work

best in this recipe for success. Thought I would share

it with the group. It's a good example of how new

and useful things can evolve from a group of folks

willing to throw some stuff against the wall to see

what sticks!

   Bob . . .

rckol

Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

I might be missing something here, but it seems that unlike the Z13/8, if the battery contactor is open, only the battery bus will be fed by the aux alt (no feed for equipment that might be on a traditional ebus, like minimal pfd, nav and comm).



Is this the intent, or do these other functions get piled into the battery bus?

_________________
rck

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

At 06:09 PM 7/30/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I might be missing something here, but it seems that unlike the 

Z13/8, if the battery contactor is open, only the battery bus will 

be fed by the aux alt (no feed for equipment that might be on a 

traditional ebus, like minimal pfd, nav and comm).



Is this the intent, or do these other functions get piled into the 

battery bus?


	


   One could add an e-bus to this architecture . . . and

   in fact, I'll do so at the next iteration.



   Thanks for bringing it up.  I hadn't really got that

   far yet . . . the e-bus can be added to virtually

   any architecture. I was fixated on getting the fat

   wires managed first.

   Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

Hi Bob,

When you said



 	  Quote: 	
		  Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation

about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months

ago have prompted a new Z-figure 	




 did you mean Z-13/20 here?



John

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:31 am Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

At 09:52 AM 7/31/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bob,

When you said

 > Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation

 > about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months

 > ago have prompted a new Z-figure

  did you mean Z-13/20 here?


	


   yes . . .

   Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

Bob,

Just to be clear, in a previous exchange you said that ALL essential engine power should come from the Batt Bus. Does that mean redundant systems (#2pump, #2ignition, #2EFI {switch}) also reside on the batt bus?

If the answer is yes, what is the reasoning for not having them on the main (separate) bus?



John

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

At 02:31 PM 8/6/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,

Just to be clear, in a previous exchange you said that ALL essential 

engine power should come from the Batt Bus. Does that mean redundant 

systems (#2pump, #2ignition, #2EFI {switch}) also reside on the batt bus?


	


     One set would run from the battery bus, the other from

     the main bus.



 	  Quote: 	
		  If the answer is yes, what is the reasoning for not having them on 

the main (separate) bus?


	


     The design goal is to be able to shut down

     as much of the electrical system as possible

     without killing the engine. So if you get a

     severe electrical event (smoke in the cockpit)

     you can turn off the battery master and alternator

     switches without affecting engine ops.



     So the primary engine support hardware would

     run from the battery bus, secondary engine

     support would power from the main bus.



     This separation covers a smoke-in-the-cockpit

     event without having to manage any switches

     over and above the power sources.



     I've discovered any really attractive

     high-current diodes for aux alternator b-lead

     isolation. Electrically suited components

     are pretty bulky after you get the heat-sinked.

     They're also more expensive than a contactor.



     So your original idea for tasking a single contactor

     with ground power management AND b-lead crash

     safety has some warm fuzzies about it.



     My grand daughter was visiting most of last

     week which was a most pleasant but commanding

     distraction. I'll get my head back on things

     electric pretty soon.

   Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

Bob,



Per your last post, re your grand daughter  	  Quote: 	
		  The design goal is to be able to shut down

as much of the electrical system as possible

without killing the engine. 	




Sometimes I feel this is applicable to my nephews.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  So your original idea for tasking a single contactor

with ground power management AND b-lead crash

safety has some warm fuzzies about it. 	




There are two concerns here with my set-up. See attachment



1.My ground power jack positve lead to the contactor is about 30". When the SB alternator is on line the GPJ lead is hot to the battery through a 40a MANL . I reasoned that worst case, like a shorted diode plate in the alt, the MANL would keep things from getting out of hand should the 4AWG GPJ lead be breached by anything, that I don't like to think about, during inflight SB alt ops.



2. To control the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the SB Alt switch, without having to remember  to close the GPJ contactor, I have two parallel switch legs from the neg side of the contactor coil to ground. One for

the GPJ per the Z figure and one for a leg of the DPDT switch that has  9024 control of the SB alt.on the other leg. 

Other than inadvertently closing the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the GP switch and putting both alts online at once (are there bad things that happen??), I can't see any problems with doing this. But when asking a system to do double duty, I'd like some other eyes to have a look for gotchas.



And speaking of double duty, could the 9024 Ovm on the contactor also dispense with the need for the (9005 LVM) on the Batt bus?



John

Z8 w-SB ALT-GPJ conceptual .pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Z8 w-SB ALT-GPJ conceptual .pdf

Filesize:

441.09 KB

Downloaded:

443 Time(s)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

 	  Quote: 	
		  1.My ground power jack positve lead to the contactor is about 30". 

When the SB alternator is on line the GPJ lead is hot to the battery 

through a 40a MANL.


	


   The ground power lead can't go through the MANL40.

   You can't crank an engine through that small a fuse.

   This lead is in the same class as a "FAT WIRE" that

   feeds battery/cranking circuits and does not give

   rise to a lot of risk that cannot be managed by shutting

   off the crew controlled power switches.



 	  Quote: 	
		  2. To control the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the SB Alt switch, without 

having to remember  to close the GPJ contactor, I have two parallel 

switch legs from the neg side of the contactor coil to ground. One for

the GPJ per the Z figure and one for a leg of the DPDT switch that 

has  9024 control of the SB alt.on the other leg.

Other than inadvertently closing the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the GP 

switch and putting both alts online at once (are there bad things 

that happen??), I can't see any problems with doing this. But when 

asking a system to do double duty, I'd like some other eyes to have 

a look for gotchas.


	


   I'm praying over this a bit. What's your s/b

   alternator/regulator combination again?



 	  Quote: 	
		  And speaking of double duty, could the 9024 Ovm on the contactor 

also dispense with the need for the (9005 LVM) on the Batt bus?


	


   Yes, or better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor

   can watch both the battery and main busses

   and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too.



   Still sifting the marbles . . .

   Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:58 am Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

 	  Quote: 	
		  The ground power lead can't go through the MANL40. 	




Sometimes I get so buried in how it all connects that I overlook what it's for. Thanks for catching that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  What's your s/b

alternator/regulator combination again?

	




Main alt,  60a with LR3



Stby, 40a with a generic Ford regulator.



[/quote]better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor

can watch both the battery and main busses

and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Is the 9011 available from the AEC? Or do I need to roll my own?



John

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

>> What's your s/b

 >> alternator/regulator combination again?



 > Main alt,  60a with LR3



 > Stby, 40a with a generic Ford regulator.



 >> better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor

 >> can watch both the battery and main busses

 >> and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too.



   Okay, we can press a 9024 into service as dual

   LV warning only. Another 9024 would take care

   of lv warning for both battery and main busses

   PLUS ov protection for the S/B alternator.



 > Is the 9011 available from the AEC? Or do I need to roll my own?



   The 9011 is all done except for writing the installation

   manual and getting it into production. Proof

   of concept articles have been flying for awhile

   with no unhappy feedback. The 9011 will be right

   on the heels of the 9024.



   Also, the amber LED warning light fixtures

   illustrated at



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/



   are available. I could probably come up

   with placards too.

   Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, we can press a 9024 into service as dual

LV warning only. Another 9024 would take care

of lv warning for both battery and main busses

PLUS ov protection for the S/B alternator.

	




I'm a little confused about the need for two 9024's if one can give LV indication for  Batt and Main busses and OV protection from the stby alt.



And would the OV protection extend to the shared contactor (stby alt/GPJ) for the ground power jack as in the attached?



John

Z8 w-SB ALT-GPJ conceptual .pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Z8 w-SB ALT-GPJ conceptual .pdf

Filesize:

446.97 KB

Downloaded:

455 Time(s)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: New Z-8 drawing

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I'm a little confused about the need for two 9024's if one can give 

LV indication for  Batt and Main busses and OV protection from the stby alt.


	


   Oops, I had a brain-f(at)#t and was running the

   hampster wheel on another system. Got too many

   irons in the fire.



   I'm still stirring the pot on how to get the

   s/b alternator b-lead contactor to retain

   ground power reverse polarity and ov protection.

   The architecture you've illustrated agrees with

   my best recipe for the moment. Separate ov protection

   for the ground power contactor (probably crowbar)

   and another for s/b alternator field (probably

   9024 driving a relay so you don't need a circuit

   breaker).



 	  Quote: 	
		  And would the OV protection extend to the shared contactor (stby 

alt/GPJ) for the ground power jack as in the attached?


	


   We need to think about how the crowbar ov

   module interacts with the 9024 ov protection.

   We don't want the contactor to open before the

   ov relay gets tripped. I think we'll want to wire

   things so that the crowbar module is effective only

   while the ground power control switch/breaker is

   closed.  I.e. move the black wire to the cathode

   end of the diode in the ground power control lead.

   Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: New Z-8 drawing

 	  Quote: 	
		  Oops, I had a brain-f(at)#t and was running the

hampster wheel on another system. Got too many

irons in the fire. 	




No worries and I know that I speak for all of us on this forum; it is simply astounding that you manage to participate here as much as you do AND keep your day job. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I think we'll want to wire

things so that the crowbar module is effective only

while the ground power control switch/breaker is

closed. I.e. move the black wire to the cathode

end of the diode in the ground power control lead.

	




OK, that's done in the attached. I quarantined the 9005 module for now until OV protection and LV monitoring gets ironed out. With 9024 control of the SB alt, I deleted the fuselink from the Batt bus in favor of a 5a fuse.

Re the Main bus, with an LR3 in there, it seems that the main bus is taken care of and it's not necessary to integrate the SB alt 9024 voltage monitoring into the main bus. Can a 9024 now focus solely on the SB alt and battery bus?



John

Z8 w-SB ALT-GPJ conceptual .pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Z8 w-SB ALT-GPJ conceptual .pdf

Filesize:

439.52 KB

Downloaded:

429 Time(s)

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum