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ArjayS(at)AOL.COM
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 Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: You have your 10 |
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Hi Guys!!
The good news is we have our 10 cowls spoken for. I will contact everyone and with permission publish the list. This is a great example of working together to get a good price and for our part, understanding the needs of the group.
I have no doubt we will do this yearly and run a similar special next year. In addition, you should know I took all the input from the group and implemented changes in the fit as well as a change in the diffuser which will yeild even better cooling.
It's been a pleasure working with you!
Rj Siegel CEO/Lopresti Aviation Engineering [quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: You have your 10 |
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Hi RJ,
Good to see business is going well. You really should call it a nose bowl though. Though, saying you sell a cowling does sound sexier than selling a nose bowl.
I've already price my cowling so low I can't afford to lower the price. If I dropped the price 20%, I wouldn't make any money at all. The baffles alone, for one cowling, costs me $550. For a while, I was offering to install and paint my cowling for $10,000. I got 4 takers at that price. I lost about $4000 to $5000 on each installation. Even now, after it's PMA'd and I can ship the parts, no takers at $8500.
I have a theory about that.
All plane owners have, in the back of their mind, this need to fix something on, or add something to, their plane. Whether it needs it or not. Each owner has a dollar amount that they plan to spend. They may not be conscience of it, but they do. They have an amount of agony points they are willing to spend. Agony points are the points spent, say, removing panels to install something they just bought, taking off the cowling or wheel pants, taking the plane to the avionics shop, to the FBO for annual, or building a whole plane. For example: I know of one guy who has a plane project that will take years to complete. The very last thing he needs right now is the engine. But, he has a brand new engine sitting on the floor, wrapped in plastic, waiting for his plane to be finished. Why? He has the money to buy the engine; he doesn't have the agony points to put it all together.
Take your landing light for example. Great idea. No one really needs to see 100 yards ahead while taxiing at 30 mph, but, it doesn't take many agony points to install one. And it looks cool. They could better use those dollars toward an upgrade to their instrument panel. Get rid of that 30 year old Narco Com 11. But, then, there are those nagging agony points to take the plane to the shop, have them open it up, keep it for a few days, and replace the radio. With the landing light, they can be cool in a few hours.
Take removing old wires for example. The shop says, "I can remove your DME for $1000. It'll take about a day." The owner says, "That much, huh. Really that long?" "Well, tell you what, you're a good customer. I can put Juan on it this afternoon and have it out for $500." "Great. It's a deal." So, instead of removing the DME, the associated wires, the coax and antenna, the fuse/circuit breaker and grounds, the shop slides the unit out, removes the tray, puts in a blank, and just like magic, no DME. Of course, the owner has no clue what antenna went to what and doesn't care. For all he knows, the DME is gone. That's all he cares about.
I removed 8 coax comm cables from one plane. "8" They just went under the panel that had been cut from either end and the middle wire tie was still there, holding the coax.
At Oshkosh, there are all sorts of gadgets for the plane and airplane owner from $10 to $10,000. Each dollar range has something for the unconscious dollar limit and each carries its own required agony points to see through to completion. My Jaguar cowling is $8500. But, there are a lot of agony points involved in getting it installed and painted.
So, I'm working on something that costs less and requires few agony points.
From: "ArjayS(at)aol.com" <ArjayS(at)aol.com>
To: grumman-gang(at)mailman.xmission.com; teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:37:36 AM
Subject: You have your 10
Hi Guys!!
The good news is we have our 10 cowls spoken for. I will contact everyone and with permission publish the list. This is a great style="position:fixed">
[quote][b]
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ArjayS(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:57 am Post subject: You have your 10 |
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Gary
Good to hear from you. I think you're right about "nosebowl". Actually, I would like to find a name as creative as Roys (Hubba Caps, Wow Cowls, Boom Beams). Maybe "The Jimmy Durante".
I really agree about the pain points. Here is what I think. Personally, I would approach Kevin Lancaster and make a deal for every new aircraft. I'm guessing you already have. (But that's just a guess). I think we all need to talk to Kevin and offer to see what we can do to help, because if he actually starts producing aircraft, we all benefit. Wanna talk to other suppliers and see if we can do anything as a group?
Rj
| Quote: | Hi RJ,
Good to see business is going well. You really should call it a nose bowl though. Though, saying you sell a cowling does sound sexier than selling a nose bowl.
I've already price my cowling so low I can't afford to lower the price. If I dropped the price 20%, I wouldn't make any money at all. The baffles alone, for one cowling, costs me $550. For a while, I was offering to install and paint my cowling for $10,000. I got 4 takers at that price. I lost about $4000 to $5000 on each installation. Even now, after it's PMA'd and I can ship the parts, no takers at $8500.
I have a theory about that.
All plane owners have, in the back of their mind, this need to fix something on, or add something to, their plane. Whether it needs it or not. Each owner has a dollar amount that they plan to spend. They may not be conscience of it, but they do. They have an amount of agony points they are willing to spend. Agony points are the points spent, say, removing panels to install something they just bought, taking off the cowling or wheel pants, taking the plane to the avionics shop, to the FBO for annual, or building a whole plane. For example: I know of one guy who has a plane project that will take years to complete. The very last thing he needs right now is the engine. But, he has a brand new engine sitting on the floor, wrapped in plastic, waiting for his plane to be finished. Why? He has the money to buy the engine; he doesn't have the agony points to put it all together.
Take your landing light for example. Great idea. No one really needs to see 100 yards ahead while taxiing at 30 mph, but, it doesn't take many agony points to install one. And it looks cool. They could better use those dollars toward an upgrade to their instrument panel. Get rid of that 30 year old Narco Com 11. But, then, there are those nagging agony points to take the plane to the shop, have them open it up, keep it for a few days, and replace the radio. With the landing light, they can be cool in a few hours.
Take removing old wires for example. The shop says, "I can remove your DME for $1000. It'll take about a day." The owner says, "That much, huh. Really that long?" "Well, tell you what, you're a good customer. I can put Juan on it this afternoon and have it out for $500." "Great. It's a deal." So, instead of removing the DME, the associated wires, the coax and antenna, the fuse/circuit breaker and grounds, the shop slides the unit out, removes the tray, puts in a blank, and just like magic, no DME. Of course, the owner has no clue what antenna went to what and doesn't care. For all he knows, the DME is gone. That's all he cares about.
I removed 8 coax comm cables from one plane. "8" They just went under the panel that had been cut from either end and the middle wire tie was still there, holding the coax.
At Oshkosh, there are all sorts of gadgets for the plane and airplane owner from $10 to $10,000. Each dollar range has something for the unconscious dollar limit and each carries its own required agony points to see through to completion. My Jaguar cowling is $8500. But, there are a lot of agony points involved in getting it installed and painted.
So, I'm working on something that costs less and requires few agony points.
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From: "ArjayS(at)aol.com" <ArjayS(at)aol.com>
To: grumman-gang(at)mailman.xmission.com; teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:37:36 AM
Subject: You have your 10
Hi Guys!!
The good news is we have our 10 cowls spoken for. I will contact everyone and with permission publish the list. This is a great style="position:fixed">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[quote][b]
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grumpyparts
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 65
Location: EGHH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: Re: You have your 10 |
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Here’s my take on it. The Jaguar Cowl is a great upgrade, but it does need the Power Flow exhaust and is limited only to the Tiger fleet. This does limit the market some what. What the AA5 fleet in general is crying out for is for a one cowl fits all models with as few chances as possible between them all. May be that’s a little simplistic and the fleet a little too old and low in overall value to justify that sort of outlay, but that is what is needed.
At Dayton I discussed with RJ why they didn’t combine their new nose bowls with a complete new fibre cowling to the original design and the answer seemed to be development costs would be too high for the limited market. Therefore the question has to be asked if just making a fibre/carbon copy of the existing cowling can’t be justified how can one financially justify making a completely new design.
Ian M
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JHOSLER(at)epri.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: You have your 10 |
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Along a similar vein, could a variation of the Jaguar cowl be made that does not require the Power Flow?? Would more FAA involvement be needed?
I have read that the Power Flow alone increases oil temp by 12 F. True?
--
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ArjayS(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: You have your 10 |
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You ask a valid question. This industry runs on passion not common sense. Read GaryVogt's posts. Even if he paid himself 50 cents an hour (he paid himslef nothing) for developing and bringing his cowl to market and even if he wrote off the YEARS it took him to do that. (I think 7 years at least). Again, he again paid himself nothing to push it through the FAA certification program (also years), he is still losing money with every cowl he sells. Ask him. He's a good guy, he'll tell you the tale to market. He's trying to seed the market but there a very finite market to seed.
I'm in love with Grummans and I have the aircraft to prove it. But we Grumman owners are not Cirrus owners and we cheerfully admit it. We won't/can't justify $12,000 that Cirrus owners pay for cowls.
Gary is trying to sell his cowl at $8000 and it's the bargain of the century. We're just not the kind of crowd that can dig that deep.
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
| Quote: |
Here’s my take on it. The Jaguar Cowl is a great upgrade, but it does need the Power Flow exhaust and is limited only to the Tiger fleet. This does limit the market some what. What the AA5 fleet in general is crying out for is for a one cowl fits all models with as few chances as possible between them all. May be that’s a little simplistic and the fleet a little too old and low in overall value to justify that sort of outlay, but that is what is needed.
At Dayton I discussed with RJ why they didn’t combine their new nose bowls with a complete new fibre cowling to the original design and the answer seemed to be development costs would be too high for the limited market. Therefore the question has to be asked if just making a fibre/carbon copy of the existing cowling can’t be justified how can one financially justify making a completely new design.Â
|
[quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:13 pm Post subject: You have your 10 |
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I have an idea Ian. Buy my entire cowling project for what I have in it, $150,000 U.S. and I'll have the money needed to develop a cowling that not only fits the Cheetah, but is interchangeable with the Tiger and Traveler as well.
From: grumpyparts <i.r.m(at)btinternet.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 12:49:17 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: You have your 10
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "grumpyparts" <i.r.m(at)btinternet.com (i.r.m(at)btinternet.com)>
Here’s my take on it. The Jaguar Cowl is a great upgrade, but it does need the Power Flow exhaust and is limited only to the Tiger fleet. This does limit the market some what. What the AA5 fleet in general is crying out for is for a one cowl fits all models with as few chances as possible between them all. May be that’s a little simplistic and the fleet a little too old and low in overall value to justify that sort of outlay, but that is what is needed.
At Dayton I discussed with RJ why they didn’t combine their new nose bowls with a complete new fibre cowling to the original design and the answer seemed to be development costs would be too high for the limited market. Therefore the question has to be asked if just making a fibre/carbon copy of the existing cowling can’t be justified how can one financially justify making a completely new design.
Ian M
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307372#307372
[b]http://www.ma" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/co===================
[quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:24 pm Post subject: You have your 10 |
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There is no way the Power Flow exhaust system can increase the oil temp.
My original design had the factory exhaust system. All of those drawings are already approved. I would need about $10,000 for the test program to approve the stock exhaust. I would need to complete a series of climb-cooling tests, carb heat rise tests, and climb performance tests.
Look at the pic. It has the stock cowling.
From: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER(at)epri.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 1:00:06 PM
Subject: RE: Re: You have your 10
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER(at)epri.com (JHOSLER(at)epri.com)>
Along a similar vein, could a variation of the Jaguar cowl be made that does not require the Power Flow?? Would more FAA involvement be needed?
I have read that the Power Flow alone increases oil temp by 12 F. True?
--
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teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: You have your 10 |
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Hi RJ, I would be willing to talk to Kevin as a group. There are a number of items that need to be addressed in my opinion.
Thanks
Gary
From: "ArjayS(at)aol.com" <ArjayS(at)aol.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com; teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 10:56:37 AM
Subject: Re: You have your 10
Gary
Good to hear from you. I think you're right about "nosebowl". Actually, I would like to find a name as creative as Roys (Hubba Caps, Wow Cowls, Boom Beams). Maybe "The Jimmy Durante".
I really agree about the pain points. Here is what I think. Personally, I would approach Kevin Lancaster and make a deal for every new aircraft. I'm guessing you already have. (But that's just a guess). I think we all need to talk to Kevin and offer to see what we can do to help, because if he actually starts producing aircraft, we all benefit. Wanna talk to other suppliers and see if we can do anything as a group?
Rj
| Quote: | Hi RJ,
Good to see business is going well. You really should call it a nose bowl though. Though, saying you sell a cowling does sound sexier than selling a nose bowl.
I've already price my cowling so low I can't afford to lower the price. If I dropped the price 20%, I wouldn't make any money at all. The baffles alone, for one cowling, costs me $550. For a while, I was offering to install and paint my cowling for $10,000. I got 4 takers at that price. I lost about $4000 to $5000 on each installation. Even now, after it's PMA'd and I can ship the parts, no takers at $8500.
I have a theory about that.
All plane owners have, in the back of their mind, this need to fix something on, or add something to, their plane. Whether it needs it or not. Each owner has a dollar amount that they plan to spend. They may not be conscience of it, but they do. They have an amount of agony points they are willing to spend. Agony points are the points spent, say, removing panels to install something they just bought, taking off the cowling or wheel pants, taking the plane to the avionics shop, to the FBO for annual, or building a whole plane. For example: I know of one guy who has a plane project that will take years to complete. The very last thing he needs right now is the engine. But, he has a brand new engine sitting on the floor, wrapped in plastic, waiting for his plane to be finished. Why? He has the money to buy the engine; he doesn't have the agony points to put it all together.
Take your landing light for example. Great idea. No one really needs to see 100 yards ahead while taxiing at 30 mph, but, it doesn't take many agony points to install one. And it looks cool. They could better use those dollars toward an upgrade to their instrument panel. Get rid of that 30 year old Narco Com 11. But, then, there are those nagging agony points to take the plane to the shop, have them open it up, keep it for a few days, and replace the radio. With the landing light, they can be cool in a few hours.
Take removing old wires for example. The shop says, "I can remove your DME for $1000. It'll take about a day." The owner says, "That much, huh. Really that long?" "Well, tell you what, you're a good customer. I can put Juan on it this afternoon and have it out for $500." "Great. It's a deal." So, instead of removing the DME, the associated wires, the coax and antenna, the fuse/circuit breaker and grounds, the shop slides the unit out, removes the tray, puts in a blank, and just like magic, no DME. Of course, the owner has no clue what antenna went to what and doesn't care. For all he knows, the DME is gone. That's all he cares about.
I removed 8 coax comm cables from one plane. "8" They just went under the panel that had been cut from either end and the middle wire tie was still there, holding the coax.
At Oshkosh, there are all sorts of gadgets for the plane and airplane owner from $10 to $10,000. Each dollar range has something for the unconscious dollar limit and each carries its own required agony points to see through to completion. My Jaguar cowling is $8500. But, there are a lot of agony points involved in getting it installed and painted.
So, I'm working on something that costs less and requires few agony points.
|
From: "ArjayS(at)aol.com" <ArjayS(at)aol.com>
To: grumman-gang(at)mailman.xmission.com; teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:37:36 AM
Subject: You have your 10
Hi Guys!!
The good news is we have our 10 cowls spoken for. I will contact everyone and with permission publish the list. This is a great style="position:fixed">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
[quote][b]
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ArjayS(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: You have your 10 |
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Great!
Let's list the areas where we and others can help then see if we can create a group where everyone benefits. I'm not married to doing a cowl, ther's a lot of stuff than can be done. The prototype Tiger achieved 177mph in level flight.
| Quote: | Hi RJ, I would be willing to talk to Kevin as a group. There are a number of items that need to be addressed in my opinion.
Thanks
Gary
|
[quote][b]
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