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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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 Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:07 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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Aeroelectric Listers,
My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to front-mounted starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
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tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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I cant speak to the regs but I personally would want some isolation between the battery cables and the fuel lines. I'm sure you thought of that already.
Tim Andres
From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 7:07:51 AM
Subject: Firewall Prnetration Question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)>
Aeroelectric Listers,
My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to front-mounted starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p= href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target=_blforums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
_ -Matt Drallntribution" =======
[quote][b]
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N20DG
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 61
Location: lancaster, texas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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When in doubt always check 43.13 That's your bible in aircraft building & maintance
Just my $0.02 worth
Dick
In a message dated 8/8/2010 9:39:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
[quote][b]
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:22 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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| Quote: | My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision
a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to
as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft
tunnel in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to
front-mounted starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not
seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
--------
Eric M. Jones
|
Eric,
Please elaborate on how this would be done and what are the advantages.
Remember that fuel lines will come through the cockpit fuel
selector. The bus power fat wire, usually pulled from hot side of starter
relay, also needs to go to cockpit. I have a rear mounted
battery.
Roger
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rckol
Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 36
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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At 09:37 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | I cant speak to the regs but I personally would want some isolation
between the battery cables and the fuel lines. I'm sure you thought
of that already.
Tim Andres
|
Consider the ordinary shotgun shell. The POTENTIAL
for a great release of energy is designed into
the device. Yet when events necessary to set
of that release are artfully positioned and
contained, the device offers very low risk
until it's loaded for use. Then the risks
change markedly but can still be very low if
actions are considered and responsible.
Liquid lines and wiring of all types can share the
same space. What is the likelihood that a contiguous
metal line carrying liquid is going to leak simultaneously
with compromise of the insulation on a wire thus giving
rise to an extra-hazardous condition?
At the same time, you don't just stuff those items
into shared spaces without regard to craftsmanship
and common sense for support such that neither wire
nor liquid line is being abraded by vibration while
in contact with some antagonist.
Considered and responsible actions keep your
electrons and gasoline separated just as the
same actions keep folks out of your prop and
airspeeds are maintained in the window on final.
There are no specific regs I'm aware of that
speak to co-mingling of potential hazards.
Take a peek in the tail of a Beechjet and you
find all manner of electrical, liquid, controls,
accessories, batteries, etc sharing some VERY
tightly packed spaces.
At the same time there are "rules of thumb"
for support and minimum separations but those
practices are often call for separations if
less than one inch.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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At 09:59 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | When in doubt always check 43.13 That's your bible in aircraft building & maintance
Just my $0.02 worth |
Sorta . . . 43-13 does indeed offer a lot of information
based on practical experience. I.e, recipes for success.
But the electrical section is rife with incorrect if not silly
assertions. I suspect other areas are equally plagued
with marginal editing. I think I wrote about EAA contributions to
the editing of revision B some years ago.
It was pretty bad before EAA folks provided input
and it got better afterward . . . but it's certainly
not the class of document one would want to consider
as the final word on any material or process, i.e.
a "bible'.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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At 10:38 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
It's an important discussion and I recommend that
everyone take advantage of what's offered. But keep
in mind that root cause that triggered the discussion
probably had nothing to do with WHERE things
were located in the airplane so much as HOW.
The idea that it's okay to have sloppy or ill-considered
installation of critical hardware as long as you don't
place them next to each other is faulty.
Can you imagine yourself flying along getting
a whiff of smoke or the smell of fuel and then
reassuring yourself, "No sweat, I've got things
properly separated."
The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit
are generated by combinations of failure in
craftsmanship, selection of materials or failure
to respect operating limits of machine and/or pilot.
Please do study, evaluate and understand factual
details gleaned from this or any other event. But
be equally studious and cautious of assertions like,
"do it this way and THAT will never happen."
Lack of understanding and attention to detail
can wipe out the reduction of risk offered by
anyone's assertions no matter what their title
is.
Does anyone have date/place info on this
RV-10 event?
Bob . . .
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dan42101(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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I think this is it...
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=62727
- DjD
--- On Sun, 8/8/10, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Firewall Prnetration Question
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 10:38 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rckol" <rckol(at)kaehlers.com (rckol(at)kaehlers.com)>
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
It's an important discussion and I recommend that
everyone take advantage of what's offered. But keep
in mind that root cause that triggered the discussion
probably had nothing to do with WHERE things
were located in the airplane so much as HOW.
The idea that it's okay to have sloppy or ill-considered
installation of critical hardware as long as you don't
place them next to each other is faulty.
Can you imagine yourself flying along getting
a whiff of smoke or the smell of fuel and then
reassuring yourself, "No sweat, I've got things
properly separated."
The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit
are generated by combinations of failure in
craftsmanship, selection of materials or failure
to respect operating limits of machine and/or pilot.
Please do study, evaluate and understand factual
details gleaned from this or any other event. But
be equally studious and cautious of assertions like,
"do it this way and THAT will never happen."
Lack of understanding and attention to detail
can wipe out the reduction of risk offered by
anyone's assertions no matter what their title
is.
Does anyone have date/place info on this
&="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target=_blank>hp; - MATRONICS sp; -Matt Dralle, L.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[quote][b]
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dan42101(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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NTSB preliminary:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20100509X25424&key=1
- DjD
--- On Sun, 8/8/10, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Firewall Prnetration Question
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 10:38 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rckol" <rckol(at)kaehlers.com (rckol(at)kaehlers.com)>
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
It's an important discussion and I recommend that
everyone take advantage of what's offered. But keep
in mind that root cause that triggered the discussion
probably had nothing to do with WHERE things
were located in the airplane so much as HOW.
The idea that it's okay to have sloppy or ill-considered
installation of critical hardware as long as you don't
place them next to each other is faulty.
Can you imagine yourself flying along getting
a whiff of smoke or the smell of fuel and then
reassuring yourself, "No sweat, I've got things
properly separated."
The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit
are generated by combinations of failure in
craftsmanship, selection of materials or failure
to respect operating limits of machine and/or pilot.
Please do study, evaluate and understand factual
details gleaned from this or any other event. But
be equally studious and cautious of assertions like,
"do it this way and THAT will never happen."
Lack of understanding and attention to detail
can wipe out the reduction of risk offered by
anyone's assertions no matter what their title
is.
Does anyone have date/place info on this
&="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target=_blank>hp; - MATRONICS sp; -Matt Dralle, L.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[quote][b]
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:20 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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NTSB Identification: ERA10LA256
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, May 07, 2010 in Ridgeland, SC
Aircraft: SWEZEY T/MOLNAR D VANS RV-10, registration: N110TD
Injuries: 2 Serious
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On May 7, 2010, about 1511 eastern daylight time, an experimental
amateur-built Vans RV-10, N110TD, was destroyed during an explosion after
landing at Ridgeland Airport (3J1), Ridgeland, South Carolina. The
certificated private pilot and passenger were seriously injured. Visual
meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed for the
personal flight, which was conducted under the provisions of Title 14 Code
of Federal Regulations Part 91.
According to the pilot, earlier in the day he fueled the airplane with
automotive fuel which contained 10 percent alcohol, flew to Athens/Ben Epps
Airport (AHN), Athens, GA, picked up his passenger and then departed from
AHN about 1400. The flight was flown at an altitude of 9,500 feet above mean
sea level and everything "seemed normal." While the airplane was on short
final, "about 200 feet from the runway," he had a "brief whiff" of an odor
similar to "a gas smell." Upon landing the passenger asked if they should
open the door and the pilot stated "wait [un]til we clear the runway." The
airplane back taxied on the runway a short distance and exited the runway on
the taxiway adjacent to the ramp area. As the airplane exited the runway an
explosion caused the windows and door to be blown out. He stated that it was
similar to a "vapor fire" in that there was an intense flash of heat and
fire; however, it did not last long. The occupants exited the airplane. The
pilot returned to the airplane, utilized the on board hand held fire
extinguisher, and extinguished the fire on the floor of the cabin. As he was
walking away from the airplane towards his passenger, the airplane
"exploded" a second time and was engulfed in flames within moments. The
pilot normally "raises the flaps after clearing the runway;" however, could
not recall if he had raised the flaps just prior to the first explosion.
According to the co-owner of the airplane it had been inspected on January
2, 2010 and the "tunnel" for the fuel line was inspected and free of debris.
He stated that normally they use "93 octane auto fuel;" however, they can
use 100 LL aviation fuel. He further stated that he had flown the airplane
about 2 or 3 weeks prior and did not detect any odors. Examination of the
airplane by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) aviation safety inspectors
revealed that the airplane was completely consumed by fire. Only a small
portion of the tail section, and the engine area forward of the firewall had
not been consumed by fire.
The pilot held a private pilot certificate with a rating for airplane
single-engine land and a repair man experimental aircraft builder
certificate with inspection certificate for the accident airplane. The
pilot's most recent FAA third-class medical certificate was issued in April
2009. During a phone interview with the NTSB investigator in charge the
pilot reported approximately 300 total hours of flight experience and
approximately 135 total hours of flight experience in the accident airplane.
He further reported that his logbook was in the airplane at the time of the
accident. According to FAA records, the airplane was manufactured and
issued a special airworthiness certificate in 2008. The airplane was
equipped with a Chevrolet 2006 LS-2 engine and a Vesta 3B78 propeller. The
pilot reported to the NTSB that during the accident flight the airplane had
just gone over 150 total hours time in service.
The 1456 recorded weather at Beaufort Marine Corp Air Station (NBC),
Beaufort, South Carolina located 14 nautical miles to the east of the
accident location included winds from 140 degrees at 5 knots, visibility 7
miles, few clouds at 6,000 feet above ground level, temperature 32 degrees
C, dew point 16 degrees C, and the altimeter setting was 29.98 inches of
mercury.
--
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Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:34 am Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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Good Afternoon Eric,
Seems to me I remember 'Lectric Bob recommending something similar many moons ago. As I recall, he recommended a thin wall copper tubing with all those wires inside it and using the copper tube as the ground. Don't think he recommended fuel lines be included though!
Anyone else remember that idea!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 8/8/2010 9:10:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, emjones(at)charter.net writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Aeroelectric Listers,
My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to front-mounted starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307914#307914===============================================
_-= = Use utilities Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
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[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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At 12:15 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
Examination of the airplane by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
aviation safety inspectors revealed that the airplane was completely
consumed by fire. Only a small portion of the tail section, and the
engine area forward of the firewall had not been consumed by fire.
Thanks for tracking this down Bob . . .
Obviously, there will be no autopsy on the airplane.
I hope the occupants are well recovered.
A high energy explosion like this suggests
a significant volume of relatively gas-tight
space "stoked" with fuel vapor and
ignited at or near stoichiometric ratio
for ideal combustion. Given the time at
which the explosion occurred, the flap
motor is a high-probability as ignition
source. Identification of the leak is
going to be anyone's guess.
I've read reports where fuel or other fluids
were observed to be dripping from an airplane
were the leak was some distance away and the
fluid simply followed the inside of the skin.
It's inarguable that there was a leak and
equally inarguable that there was an ignition
source. But until further data becomes available,
using this incident as a foundation for discussion
of best practices would be rather unproductive.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:40 pm Post subject: Firewall Prnetration Question |
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At 02:20 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | Good Afternoon Eric,
Seems to me I remember 'Lectric Bob recommending something similar many moons ago. As I recall, he recommended a thin wall copper tubing with all those wires inside it and using the copper tube as the ground. Don't think he recommended fuel lines be included though!
Anyone else remember that idea! |
Sure. The first few of the Rutan pushers I was
involved with experimented with a copper tube
conduit and ground system that ran from nose mounted battery
to the fire wall.
[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20100809003416.02029e10(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]
There were a few airplanes built this way but it proved to
be a lot of work with little benefit. I took the suggestion
out of later revisions to the 'Connection.
Bob . . .
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