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roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
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 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
[b]
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roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:24 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Ron, The primary thing to look for in the hull, besides tap testing it all for evidence of delaminations, is weight. Too many people have the idea that adding more and more layers is better. Is there any kind of builder's log with it? Do you know what type of epoxy was used, or even if it was epoxy? That would help a whole bunch. Are there any notes about what's been done so you can get some idea of the original builder's thoughts on the project? If you pull it off you'll definitely have an airplane that will attract a crowd where ever you take her.
Rick
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[b]
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flykolb(at)pa.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Ron,
First question and very important: What is the weight???
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:25 PM
To: Kolb-list
Subject: Kolb flying boat
I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:27 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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First question and very important: What is the weight???
Dennis
Dennis S/Gang:
Another question I would ask myself would be, "Why is it changing so many
hands over its life span?"
There are much better ways to go amphibious than what is depicted in the
photos.
I have been living on a large lake for 34 years. When I first bought my
Ultrastar Kit from Homer Kolb, I also attended my first Sun and Fun Flyin,
March 1984. There was a beautiful Ultlrastar on fiberglass floats there.
It was painted red and white sunburst. I drooled over that little float
plane all week, as well as the Ultrastar Dennis was so ably demonstrating.
The Ultrastar was the star of the show. There was not another ultralight
that would compare with the looks and performance of Homer's design.
Never did build a float plane. Figured I had hard enough time trying to
dock my boat in the wind, and it was only a few feet wide. What would I do
with a lightweight flying boat that was 27.5 feet wide. The dock would have
survived much better than the Stitts and aluminum tubing.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
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hauck's holler
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h20maule(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:23 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:35 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole
plane?
Daniel Myers
Folks:
If I had a beach like that, I'd probably have an amphib Kolb.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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I think I can come up with a plausible reason for so many owners of this unique amphib project. I've seen a dozen times. One fellow has the vision and starts the project, he loses interest, dies, loses his job, take your pick. The next guy knows almost nothing about the original airplane, but falls for the project, makes some progress, loses interest, and on and on. I made money for five years and accumulated a lot of tradables, tools, and materials finding projects like this, breaking them up and selling the engines, parts and pieces. I didn't make a fortune, but it supported my projects and my shop, and I never lost money.
The best one I ever saw was a LongEZ fuselage that a fellow doted over for 16 years. It was flawless and had more innovations than you could count. My favorite was a step for boarding that was linked to the canopy so that it automatically extended when the canopy was opened and retracted when it closed. It was ingenious and there were a half dozen more. He died before getting it flying and the project passed from hand to hand as described above. It anyone ever finishes it there's probably a Lindy waiting, it's so innovative and , when I saw it at least, beautifully done.
It there's anyone reading this who is thinking of building, here's what I've taken away from this.
Buy the airplane kit or plans that fits your needs and means, not you fantasies.
Build it stock. All those mods that would just be so cool to do will slow you down, add weight, and increase the likelihood that your project never flies.
After you have it flying and you KNOW something about the airplane and you're not what the Polyfiber manual calls a "Leroy", then make modifications one at a time.
Pick small doable projects that you can afford.
Do your homework and think it through, ask yourself over and over, "is it worth the time I won't be able to fly it?".
Accumulate all the materials to make the mod and build all sub assemblies that you can first.
Pick a time when you can burn through from start to finish with no distractions,
Then and only then, take your airplane off flight status and modify it.
Sorry to be so long winded, it's the damn percosets. I hate the things, but I like not being in constant pain.
MHO and Beauford's Rule,
Rick Girard
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:15 AM, daniel myers <h20maule(at)hotmail.com (h20maule(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[b]
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_________________
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Buy the airplane kit or plans that fits your needs and means, not you fantasies.
Build it stock. All those mods that would just be so cool to do will slow you down, add weight, and increase the likelihood that your project never flies.
After you have it flying and you KNOW something about the airplane and you're not what the Polyfiber manual calls a "Leroy", then make modifications one at a time.
Rick Girard
Rick G/Gang:
I do it a little different, based on what I want when my project is finished.
First airplane I built was an Ultrastar. Built to to plans and flew it in 3 months. Modifications were made to it as I gained experience and determined what I needed and wanted, i.e., increased fuel, instrument panel, back up fuel system, improved sheet metal gap seal, landing gear, etc.
By the time I got around to building the Firestar, I knew I was going to need more than 5 gal of fuel, so I built an 18 gal aluminum tank. Knew I was going to require a cargo compartment, so I incorporated one into the fuselage. A lot of other mods and improvements came along after I started building time in the FS.
My MKIII had a mission before I started building it, to fly the perimeter of the Continental US with a dog leg to Deadhorse/Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. Again, I knew I was going to need more fuel, built 25 gal aluminum tank, cargo space, built it into the fuselage, improved main gear, dual controls (Kolb had no dual controls when I built my MKIII in 1991), different pitch trim system, different seats from the fabric sling seats, adjustable horizontal stabilizers, etc.
Most all the mods for the MKIII were accomplished as the aircraft was built. Waiting to do them after the airplane was complete would not have been possible without doing a lot of cutting, ripping, and tearing, then rebuilding.
A couple things need to be done prior to final construction:
-Increased fuel capacity. First thing folks want after they finish their Kolbs with 5 or 10 gal tanks is want more fuel.
-A place for cargo. Where am I going to put my stuff, camping gear, etc., when I decide to get out of the traffic pattern.
My mkIII was built 19 years ago, flown many hours and many miles, and does everything for me that I want it to do because I had a little experience prior to building, knew what I wanted and needed, and did it as I went through the building process. Some requirements came along after the airplane was complete, but most did not require major rebuilds.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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ulflyer(at)verizon.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:39 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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What is involved with this test drilling process and what does it actually substantiate.
jerb
At 09:21 PM 8/11/2010, you wrote:
[quote]I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
[b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Jerb, drill, deburr, measure thickness of layups. Assuming built with BID and not something like mat, allow .009 to .010" for each layer of glass. Now you have an idea of how it is built and how many layers of glass are in it. Most people mistakenly think more is better. Nice thing about glass is that you can grind off too much or add more. Layers over cured glass will have a mechanical bond that is not equal to making all layers while the epoxy is wet, but it will do providing the surface isn't contaminated with something like silicone. Silicone contamination CANNOT be cured or corrected. If it is put on a surface neither new glass nor paint will stick to it ever again. As for inspecting composite structures, that's just as easy. Get a quarter, turn it on edge and start tapping on the fuselage. A bright clear, TAP is good solid structure, a dull THUNK is evidence of a delamination of the glass layers to themselves or the core they are built upon. If you find a THUNK, begin working the quarter in expanding circles around it until you have mapped the area of the delam.
This is how the LongEZ crowd does it, even Boeing has a version of it.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:37 PM, jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net (ulflyer(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
[quote] What is involved with this test drilling process and what does it actually substantiate.
jerb
At 09:21 PM 8/11/2010, you wrote:
| Quote: | I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:41 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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"Built to to plans and flew it in 3 months. Modifications were made to it as I gained experience and determined what I needed and wanted, i.e., increased fuel, instrument panel, back up fuel system, improved sheet metal gap seal, landing gear, etc.
By the time I got around to building the Firestar, I knew I was going to need more than 5 gal of fuel, so I built an 18 gal aluminum tank. Knew I was going to require a cargo compartment, so I incorporated one into the fuselage. A lot of other mods and improvements came along after I started building time in the FS."
Isn't this pretty much what I advocated?
That you had two aircraft behind you and a lot of flying time in each when you started N101AB, means you weren't a Leroy, fantasizing about how great it would be, but someone who had practical experience and put it to use.
Your description of how you came to make the mods you did as you were building further strengthens my argument.
My comments were aimed at first time builders, which you most certainly aren't, then or now.
Rick
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Buy the airplane kit or plans that fits your needs and means, not you fantasies.
Build it stock. All those mods that would just be so cool to do will slow you down, add weight, and increase the likelihood that your project never flies.
After you have it flying and you KNOW something about the airplane and you're not what the Polyfiber manual calls a "Leroy", then make modifications one at a time.
Rick Girard
Rick G/Gang:
I do it a little different, based on what I want when my project is finished.
First airplane I built was an Ultrastar. Built to to plans and flew it in 3 months. Modifications were made to it as I gained experience and determined what I needed and wanted, i.e., increased fuel, instrument panel, back up fuel system, improved sheet metal gap seal, landing gear, etc.
By the time I got around to building the Firestar, I knew I was going to need more than 5 gal of fuel, so I built an 18 gal aluminum tank. Knew I was going to require a cargo compartment, so I incorporated one into the fuselage. A lot of other mods and improvements came along after I started building time in the FS.
My MKIII had a mission before I started building it, to fly the perimeter of the Continental US with a dog leg to Deadhorse/Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. Again, I knew I was going to need more fuel, built 25 gal aluminum tank, cargo space, built it into the fuselage, improved main gear, dual controls (Kolb had no dual controls when I built my MKIII in 1991), different pitch trim system, different seats from the fabric sling seats, adjustable horizontal stabilizers, etc.
Most all the mods for the MKIII were accomplished as the aircraft was built. Waiting to do them after the airplane was complete would not have been possible without doing a lot of cutting, ripping, and tearing, then rebuilding.
A couple things need to be done prior to final construction:
-Increased fuel capacity. First thing folks want after they finish their Kolbs with 5 or 10 gal tanks is want more fuel.
-A place for cargo. Where am I going to put my stuff, camping gear, etc., when I decide to get out of the traffic pattern.
My mkIII was built 19 years ago, flown many hours and many miles, and does everything for me that I want it to do because I had a little experience prior to building, knew what I wanted and needed, and did it as I went through the building process. Some requirements came along after the airplane was complete, but most did not require major rebuilds.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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naaa, go ahead and build the fantasy plane. Do it in a big workshop with a projection screen in front, stereo headset with engine sounds.Lots of dials and gadgets hooked up to simulator software. Cup holder for a Corona. Fantasy island scenery projected in front, your choice
of engine sounds, turbine, etc. Jimmy Buffet on the headset.
Life is good!
BB
pleeze do not archive
On 12, Aug 2010, at 2:40 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]"Built to to plans and flew it in 3 months. Modifications were made to it as I gained experience and determined what I needed and wanted, i.e., increased fuel, instrument panel, back up fuel system, improved sheet metal gap seal, landing gear, etc.
By the time I got around to building the Firestar, I knew I was going to need more than 5 gal of fuel, so I built an 18 gal aluminum tank. Knew I was going to require a cargo compartment, so I incorporated one into the fuselage. A lot of other mods and improvements came along after I started building time in the FS."
Isn't this pretty much what I advocated?
That you had two aircraft behind you and a lot of flying time in each when you started N101AB, means you weren't a Leroy, fantasizing about how great it would be, but someone who had practical experience and put it to use.
Your description of how you came to make the mods you did as you were building further strengthens my argument.
My comments were aimed at first time builders, which you most certainly aren't, then or now.
Rick
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Buy the airplane kit or plans that fits your needs and means, not you fantasies.
Build it stock. All those mods that would just be so cool to do will slow you down, add weight, and increase the likelihood that your project never flies.
After you have it flying and you KNOW something about the airplane and you're not what the Polyfiber manual calls a "Leroy", then make modifications one at a time.
Rick Girard
Rick G/Gang:
I do it a little different, based on what I want when my project is finished.
First airplane I built was an Ultrastar. Built to to plans and flew it in 3 months. Modifications were made to it as I gained experience and determined what I needed and wanted, i.e., increased fuel, instrument panel, back up fuel system, improved sheet metal gap seal, landing gear, etc.
By the time I got around to building the Firestar, I knew I was going to need more than 5 gal of fuel, so I built an 18 gal aluminum tank. Knew I was going to require a cargo compartment, so I incorporated one into the fuselage. A lot of other mods and improvements came along after I started building time in the FS.
My MKIII had a mission before I started building it, to fly the perimeter of the Continental US with a dog leg to Deadhorse/Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. Again, I knew I was going to need more fuel, built 25 gal aluminum tank, cargo space, built it into the fuselage, improved main gear, dual controls (Kolb had no dual controls when I built my MKIII in 1991), different pitch trim system, different seats from the fabric sling seats, adjustable horizontal stabilizers, etc.
Most all the mods for the MKIII were accomplished as the aircraft was built. Waiting to do them after the airplane was complete would not have been possible without doing a lot of cutting, ripping, and tearing, then rebuilding.
A couple things need to be done prior to final construction:
-Increased fuel capacity. First thing folks want after they finish their Kolbs with 5 or 10 gal tanks is want more fuel.
-A place for cargo. Where am I going to put my stuff, camping gear, etc., when I decide to get out of the traffic pattern.
My mkIII was built 19 years ago, flown many hours and many miles, and does everything for me that I want it to do because I had a little experience prior to building, knew what I wanted and needed, and did it as I went through the building process. Some requirements came along after the airplane was complete, but most did not require major rebuilds.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Isn't this pretty much what I advocated?
My comments were aimed at first time builders, which you most certainly
aren't, then or now.
Rick
A couple things need to be done prior to final construction:
-Increased fuel capacity. First thing folks want after they finish their
Kolbs with 5 or 10 gal tanks is want more fuel.
-A place for cargo. Where am I going to put my stuff, camping gear, etc.,
when I decide to get out of the traffic pattern.
john h
mkIII
Rick G/Folks:
Yep, that is pretty much what you advocated.
I wanted to emphasize the last two points for all builders, especially first
timers. If you don't make arrangements for more fuel and a cargo bay, you
will after you get tired of flying the traffic pattern. Ask anyone who has
been there and done that.
john h
mkIII - Anxious to get back in 101AB and do some traveling. She is ready to
go with a good cleanup, and I will be with a current medical and BFR.
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hauck's holler
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roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Dan and all thanks for the pics and the input. Yes the plane is near complete, but there are some tractor mechanic things I would want to address before I flew it. First would be weights and balance, then the hinged windshield would need more attachment for my liking. The fuel and wiring would need the blue auto connectors to the coil removed and the glass cleanable fuel filter thrown in the trash etc. Beyond that my concerns would be the handling caracteristics with the tail group behind that big old boat possibly blanking the tail. My biggest concerns are the paperwork to get a registration, and the purchase price in case I have to part it out. The water is always a little cold in southwest Oregon so getting out of a swamped wreck has me a little concerned as well  I'll try to attach a few more pics, but have never seen it off the trailer. I'll throw in a pic of my VW Fox for the redrive crowd. Ron NB Ore
From: h20maule(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb flying boat
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:15:29 -0400
.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
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flykolb(at)pa.net
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:25 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Ron,
In addition to the probable excess weight issue, I’d also check the internals on wing at the sponson float attach point. If there is no internal reinforcement for the rib(s) where the sponson attaches at the rear wing spar, then that is placing too much stress on adjacent wing rib(s). It looks like one rib would take the major portion of the load and no rib is capable of handling the potential sponson induced loading. If that rib weakens and fails, then the load would be taken up by the next adjacent ribs. And they in turn could be overstressed and eventually fail. This damage can be hidden because the wing fabric is flexible and can look normal even after the ribs are broken underneath. The trailing edge is not strong or stiff enough to take the loads imposed by a sponson float. The danger here is that internal damage could start and grow unseen until the wing was seriously weakened. When imagining this scenario don’t think about a smooth lake surface with the nice small ripples, imagine some winds that have stirred up some waves or a motor boat had just sent out a large wake and you don’t see it and the sponson dips into this wave. Or you bump a dock or rock on the shore. The sponson is on a long moment arm and can exert a lot of force on the wing.
All Kolb mono floats that I have seen attach the sponsons directly to the main wing spar. The sponson is supported by one stout tube that goes completely thru the 5” spar. This is placed far enough outboard where the lifting loads are no longer a major part of the spar load and the spar can afford a large vertical hole thru it.
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 12:40 AM
To: Kolb-list
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Dan and all thanks for the pics and the input. Yes the plane is near complete, but there are some tractor mechanic things I would want to address before I flew it. First would be weights and balance, then the hinged windshield would need more attachment for my liking. The fuel and wiring would need the blue auto connectors to the coil removed and the glass cleanable fuel filter thrown in the trash etc. Beyond that my concerns would be the handling caracteristics with the tail group behind that big old boat possibly blanking the tail. My biggest concerns are the paperwork to get a registration, and the purchase price in case I have to part it out. The water is always a little cold in southwest Oregon so getting out of a swamped wreck has me a little concerned as well I'll try to attach a few more pics, but have never seen it off the trailer. I'll throw in a pic of my VW Fox for the redrive crowd. Ron NB Ore
From: h20maule(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:15:29 -0400
Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:01 am Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Dennis , When I had a monofloat on my KXP I mounted the sponson on the wing fold holding tube with cable stays going to the leading edge and to the wing tip ? This seemed to be well supported to me as the wing fod tubes were intended to hold the weight of the wing ? It worked out well but I never hit anything and most of my landings were on reasonably calm water. What do you think of that rig ? Thank you
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
From: Dennis Souder <flykolb(at)pa.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 7:25:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Ron,
In addition to the probable excess weight issue, I’d also check the internals on wing at the sponson float attach point. If there is no internal reinforcement for the rib(s) where the sponson attaches at the rear wing spar, then that is placing too much stress on adjacent wing rib(s). It looks like one rib would take the major portion of the load and no rib is capable of handling the potential sponson induced loading. If that rib weakens and fails, then the load would be taken up by the next adjacent ribs. And they in turn could be overstressed and eventually fail. This damage can be hidden because the wing fabric is flexible and can look normal even after the ribs are broken underneath. The trailing edge is not strong or stiff enough to take the loads imposed by a sponson float. The danger here is that internal damage could start and grow unseen until the wing was seriously weakened. When imagining this scenario don’t think about a smooth lake surface with the nice small ripples, imagine some winds that have stirred up some waves or a motor boat had just sent out a large wake and you don’t see it and the sponson dips into this wave. Or you bump a dock or rock on the shore. The sponson is on a long moment arm and can exert a lot of force on the wing.
All Kolb mono floats that I have seen attach the sponsons directly to the main wing spar. The sponson is supported by one stout tube that goes completely thru the 5” spar. This is placed far enough outboard where the lifting loads are no longer a major part of the spar load and the spar can afford a large vertical hole thru it.
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 12:40 AM
To: Kolb-list
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Dan and all thanks for the pics and the input. Yes the plane is near complete, but there are some tractor mechanic things I would want to address before I flew it. First would be weights and balance, then the hinged windshield would need more attachment for my liking. The fuel and wiring would need the blue auto connectors to the coil removed and the glass cleanable fuel filter thrown in the trash etc. Beyond that my concerns would be the handling caracteristics with the tail group behind that big old boat possibly blanking the tail. My biggest concerns are the paperwork to get a registration, and the purchase price in case I have to part it out. The water is always a little cold in southwest Oregon so getting out of a swamped wreck has me a little concerned as well I'll try to attach a few more pics, but have never seen it off the trailer. I'll throw in a pic of my VW Fox for the redrive crowd. Ron NB Ore
From: h20maule(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:15:29 -0400
Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
| Quote: | | arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listttp://forums.matronics.com=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listttp://forums.matronics.com |
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flykolb(at)pa.net
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Chris,
With your KXP arrangement the sponson loading would have been divided between the cable and by the wing fold insertion tube. It would be hard to say how much of the load would have been carried by each - this is essentially a statically indeterminate problem since there are two load paths and each is somewhat elastic. The load sharing would require some complicated math to solve.
If it was evenly divided, for instance, then the leading edge would carry half of the total loading vs. 100% of the loading with the arrangement on the flying boat Kolb.
If the cable was not strung very tight, then possibly the wing fold insertion was carrying most of the load.
Also the leading edge tube is larger and better supported from the main spar. But even so, I would not choose to use this either. Yours held of ok under reasonable loading usage; it might or might not hold up if more stress was applied.
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris davis
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:01 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
Dennis , When I had a monofloat on my KXP I mounted the sponson on the wing fold holding tube with cable stays going to the leading edge and to the wing tip ? This seemed to be well supported to me as the wing fod tubes were intended to hold the weight of the wing ? It worked out well but I never hit anything and most of my landings were on reasonably calm water. What do you think of that rig ? Thank you
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
From: Dennis Souder <flykolb(at)pa.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 7:25:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Ron,
In addition to the probable excess weight issue, I’d also check the internals on wing at the sponson float attach point. If there is no internal reinforcement for the rib(s) where the sponson attaches at the rear wing spar, then that is placing too much stress on adjacent wing rib(s). It looks like one rib would take the major portion of the load and no rib is capable of handling the potential sponson induced loading. If that rib weakens and fails, then the load would be taken up by the next adjacent ribs. And they in turn could be overstressed and eventually fail. This damage can be hidden because the wing fabric is flexible and can look normal even after the ribs are broken underneath. The trailing edge is not strong or stiff enough to take the loads imposed by a sponson float. The danger here is that internal damage could start and grow unseen until the wing was seriously weakened. When imagining this scenario don’t think about a smooth lake surface with the nice small ripples, imagine some winds that have stirred up some waves or a motor boat had just sent out a large wake and you don’t see it and the sponson dips into this wave. Or you bump a dock or rock on the shore. The sponson is on a long moment arm and can exert a lot of force on the wing.
All Kolb mono floats that I have seen attach the sponsons directly to the main wing spar. The sponson is supported by one stout tube that goes completely thru the 5” spar. This is placed far enough outboard where the lifting loads are no longer a major part of the spar load and the spar can afford a large vertical hole thru it.
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 12:40 AM
To: Kolb-list
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Dan and all thanks for the pics and the input. Yes the plane is near complete, but there are some tractor mechanic things I would want to address before I flew it. First would be weights and balance, then the hinged windshield would need more attachment for my liking. The fuel and wiring would need the blue auto connectors to the coil removed and the glass cleanable fuel filter thrown in the trash etc. Beyond that my concerns would be the handling caracteristics with the tail group behind that big old boat possibly blanking the tail. My biggest concerns are the paperwork to get a registration, and the purchase price in case I have to part it out. The water is always a little cold in southwest Oregon so getting out of a swamped wreck has me a little concerned as well I'll try to attach a few more pics, but have never seen it off the trailer. I'll throw in a pic of my VW Fox for the redrive crowd. Ron NB Ore
From: h20maule(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:15:29 -0400
Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: Kolb flying boat |
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Dennis, Thanks for the come back It was a while ago and as I remember the reason I put the stays on was because the wing foldinsertion tube didnt seem like it would take any large amount of stress and being new at sponsons as I had twin floats on it for 3 years prior to the unifloat which I didnt care for I thought that the stays were agood insurance policy!
Everything you said in your post made sence as usual .
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
From: Dennis Souder <flykolb(at)pa.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, August 15, 2010 7:25:12 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb flying boat
Chris,
With your KXP arrangement the sponson loading would have been divided between the cable and by the wing fold insertion tube. It would be hard to say how much of the load would have been carried by each - this is essentially a statically indeterminate problem since there are two load paths and each is somewhat elastic. The load sharing would require some complicated math to solve.
If it was evenly divided, for instance, then the leading edge would carry half of the total loading vs. 100% of the loading with the arrangement on the flying boat Kolb.
If the cable was not strung very tight, then possibly the wing fold insertion was carrying most of the load.
Also the leading edge tube is larger and better supported from the main spar. But even so, I would not choose to use this either. Yours held of ok under reasonable loading usage; it might or might not hold up if more stress was applied.
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris davis
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:01 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
Dennis , When I had a monofloat on my KXP I mounted the sponson on the wing fold holding tube with cable stays going to the leading edge and to the wing tip ? This seemed to be well supported to me as the wing fod tubes were intended to hold the weight of the wing ? It worked out well but I never hit anything and most of my landings were on reasonably calm water. What do you think of that rig ? Thank you
Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hrs
Glider Pilot
Disabled from crash building Firefly
From: Dennis Souder <flykolb(at)pa.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 7:25:12 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Ron,
In addition to the probable excess weight issue, I’d also check the internals on wing at the sponson float attach point. If there is no internal reinforcement for the rib(s) where the sponson attaches at the rear wing spar, then that is placing too much stress on adjacent wing rib(s). It looks like one rib would take the major portion of the load and no rib is capable of handling the potential sponson induced loading. If that rib weakens and fails, then the load would be taken up by the next adjacent ribs. And they in turn could be overstressed and eventually fail. This damage can be hidden because the wing fabric is flexible and can look normal even after the ribs are broken underneath. The trailing edge is not strong or stiff enough to take the loads imposed by a sponson float. The danger here is that internal damage could start and grow unseen until the wing was seriously weakened. When imagining this scenario don’t think about a smooth lake surface with the nice small ripples, imagine some winds that have stirred up some waves or a motor boat had just sent out a large wake and you don’t see it and the sponson dips into this wave. Or you bump a dock or rock on the shore. The sponson is on a long moment arm and can exert a lot of force on the wing.
All Kolb mono floats that I have seen attach the sponsons directly to the main wing spar. The sponson is supported by one stout tube that goes completely thru the 5” spar. This is placed far enough outboard where the lifting loads are no longer a major part of the spar load and the spar can afford a large vertical hole thru it.
Dennis
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron schick
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 12:40 AM
To: Kolb-list
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Dan and all thanks for the pics and the input. Yes the plane is near complete, but there are some tractor mechanic things I would want to address before I flew it. First would be weights and balance, then the hinged windshield would need more attachment for my liking. The fuel and wiring would need the blue auto connectors to the coil removed and the glass cleanable fuel filter thrown in the trash etc. Beyond that my concerns would be the handling caracteristics with the tail group behind that big old boat possibly blanking the tail. My biggest concerns are the paperwork to get a registration, and the purchase price in case I have to part it out. The water is always a little cold in southwest Oregon so getting out of a swamped wreck has me a little concerned as well I'll try to attach a few more pics, but have never seen it off the trailer. I'll throw in a pic of my VW Fox for the redrive crowd. Ron NB Ore
From: h20maule(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:15:29 -0400
Ron, here are pics of my FS amphib...do you have any photos of the whole plane?
Daniel Myers
407 920 7700
From: roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb flying boat
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:21:24 -0700
I am thinking of buying it, but if the gear is a design flaw and not just for beaching I wonder if it should be returned to a conventional Firestar.
I have built a 582 Avid A model and Kitfox 4 with a VW redrive so I'm used to the experimenting. The fiberglass would probably need test drilled, banged or something to make sure it would withstand landings on choppy water. The plane has been through a few hands and the main builder has passed away.
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:01:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Kolb flying boat
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Now this truly puts the experiment in experimental aircraft. Are you thinking of buying this, Ron? It would be great to watch your progress as you bring this to the air, and water. Very cool.
Rick Girard
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, ron schick <roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com (roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
I've found a Kolb Firestar two that has been converted to an amphibian. The workmanship looks very good, but the gear must be for beaching only. The leverage of the gear to lever is about 4:1 and could not be done in flight. Has anyone else heard of a Kolb amphibian? I'll try to attach a picture. Thanks Ron
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