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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron (6F1-3).
(In case you are interested, I posted pictures so the folks at ZAC could see the damage and recommend a fix - which they did, but I decided not to fix.
http://picasaweb.google.com/carlossa52/ElongatedHolesRearSkinLowerLongeron# )
Thankfully, tere's nothing wrong with the bottom skin, left longeron and left skin.
So, obviously, I want to keep those.
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of) holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes matching those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of elongating the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh...
[quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:24 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Hi Carlos,
I'm not sure I understand your issue, but I have learned more ways to duplicate hole patterns in the last 5 years than I can count.
I think you have access to the hole pattern while laying the skin on the longeron but you don't want to directly drill through the skin because the longeron is much thicker than the skin. The way that comes to mind to do this duplication is to start with a small (#40?)longeron hole in each skin hole and enlarge it step by step until you reach the desired size. That way the drill will not exert much force on the skin while enlarging the hole in the longeron the final time.
Of course the way to start this is to clamp the longeron to the skin. Then use a Cleco in each hole drilled until the whole thing is held firmly in place. As you increase the drill size keep a Cleco in every other hole.
I hope this helps.
Paul
XL installing upgrade.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:57 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: copy hole pattern?
Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron (6F1-3).
(In case you are interested, I posted pictures so the folks at ZAC could see the damage and recommend a fix - which they did, but I decided not to fix.
http://picasaweb.google.com/carlossa52/ElongatedHolesRearSkinLowerLongeron# )
Thankfully, tere's nothing wrong with the bottom skin, left longeron and left skin.
So, obviously, I want to keep those.
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of) holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes matching those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of elongating the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh...
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[quote][b]
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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Paul, you did understand the problem.
You propose an interesting approach - but then I face my old, proven, inability to drill a hole in precisely the desired spot...
I did not mention an approach used by Michel Therrien: he cut the flange of the old logeron, clamped it on the new one and then copied the holes.
This is my plan 'B', because I don't have good tools to cut the longeron (such as a band saw).
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 21:23, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Hi Carlos,
I'm not sure I understand your issue, but I have learned more ways to duplicate hole patterns in the last 5 years than I can count.
I think you have access to the hole pattern while laying the skin on the longeron but you don't want to directly drill through the skin because the longeron is much thicker than the skin. The way that comes to mind to do this duplication is to start with a small (#40?)longeron hole in each skin hole and enlarge it step by step until you reach the desired size. That way the drill will not exert much force on the skin while enlarging the hole in the longeron the final time.
Of course the way to start this is to clamp the longeron to the skin. Then use a Cleco in each hole drilled until the whole thing is held firmly in place. As you increase the drill size keep a Cleco in every other hole.
I hope this helps.
Paul
XL installing upgrade.
[b]
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entecrj(at)sbcglobal.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron (6F1-3).
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of) holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes matching those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of elongating the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can buy transfer punches from McMaster Carr, these will give a very precise center punch mark for drilling.
below is a description of them.
Hope this is of some help.
Russell Johnson
601-HDS
Use to transfer the location of threaded, drilled, and reamed holes from one piece of metal to another that requires identical holes. These U.S.-made punches are made from top-quality heat-treated tempered steel with a black-oxide finish for durability. All are approximately 4 7/8" long.
The diameter tolerances of these punches are ±0.0005". Punches with diameters of 1/16" to 3/32", #40 to #60, and 1 mm to 2 mm are approximately 0.002" undersized. Those with diameters 7/64" to 17/32", A to Z, #1 to #39, and 2.5 mm to 13 mm are approximately 0.0025" undersized. Punch diameters 35/64" to 2" and 13.5 mm to 25 mm are approximately 0.003" undersized.
[quote][b]
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MHerder
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: copy hole pattern? |
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I think its called a Strap duplicator. Available at the yardstore. Very handy tool.
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_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying |
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Carlos,
You don't have to hit dead center in the hole when using a smaller drill. The cutting edge on the drill is just on the end so when you get to the edge of the hole the side of the drill will be supported by the skin hole edge. By starting small you only have a little metal to remove when you use the skin to support the drill.
Try on a piece of scrap metal first. You'll see -- this trick actually works.
Best regards,
Paul
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:45 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: copy hole pattern?
Paul, you did understand the problem.
You propose an interesting approach - but then I face my old, proven, inability to drill a hole in precisely the desired spot...
I did not mention an approach used by Michel Therrien: he cut the flange of the old logeron, clamped it on the new one and then copied the holes.
This is my plan 'B', because I don't have good tools to cut the longeron (such as a band saw).
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 21:23, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net (psm(at)att.net)> wrote:
Hi Carlos,
I'm not sure I understand your issue, but I have learned more ways to duplicate hole patterns in the last 5 years than I can count.
I think you have access to the hole pattern while laying the skin on the longeron but you don't want to directly drill through the skin because the longeron is much thicker than the skin. The way that comes to mind to do this duplication is to start with a small (#40?)longeron hole in each skin hole and enlarge it step by step until you reach the desired size. That way the drill will not exert much force on the skin while enlarging the hole in the longeron the final time.
Of course the way to start this is to clamp the longeron to the skin. Then use a Cleco in each hole drilled until the whole thing is held firmly in place. As you increase the drill size keep a Cleco in every other hole.
I hope this helps.
Paul
XL installing upgrade.
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0123456789
[quote][b]
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: copy hole pattern? |
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Carlos,
I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through with a pilot drill.
If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you one and mail it out.
586-484-3391
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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ |
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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Ron, thanks for the offer.
I am not sure I understood the description (actually, I am sure I didn't). It seems to be something different from the transfer punch Russel suggested.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z
Do you have a picture somewhere in your kitlog?
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 22:58, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)>
Carlos,
I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through with a pilot drill.
If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you one and mail it out.
586-484-3391
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
[b]
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jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Carlos,
If you go to US Industrial Tool, a set of Transfer Punches is part number TP457K. Just search for it in the search box. Also look at part TP783. This is a housing and variable size drill bushings to help make sure the hole is 90 degrees to the part. Other drill bushings are also made with an outside diameter to fit in your existing hole. They have an inner hole to guide your drill to make a pilot hole in the new part or skin. Take a look at H type drill bushings at the Reid Supply or McMaster-Carr web sites. Any of these may work for you.
Jeff
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:33 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: copy hole pattern?
Ron, thanks for the offer.
I am not sure I understood the description (actually, I am sure I didn't). It seems to be something different from the transfer punch Russel suggested.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z
do not archive
Do you have a picture somewhere in your kitlog?
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 22:58, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)>
Carlos,
I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through with a pilot drill.
If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you one and mail it out.
586-484-3391
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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0123456789
[quote][b]
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Carlos
I bought a set of transfer punches from Harbor Freight,
http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html
for my wing upgrade. A well spent $10 for a set ranging from 3/32" to 1/2". I've only used a few of them, but I've used them over and over again. As Russel suggested, I think they will do exactly what you want, i.e., enable you to back drill a hole right in the center of the pattern hole. As Paul recommended, start w/ a 3/32" drill and progressively enlarge the hole.
Terry
At 11:32 PM 8/12/2010 -0400, you wrote:
[quote]Ron, thanks for the offer.
I am not sure I understood the description (actually, I am sure I didn't). It seems to be something different from the transfer punch Russel suggested.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z
Do you have a picture somewhere in your kitlog?
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 22:58, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)>
Carlos,
I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through with a pilot drill.
If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you one and mail it out.
586-484-3391 |
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [b]
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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So, with this thingy in place, you drill a 3/32" hole, and then enlarge it to #21 / 20 as need be ?
And same principle for #30, I presume..
Neat!
Carlos
On 13 August 2010 22:42, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)>
Yep, Look here:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=59265&row=431
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
[b]
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Hi Carlos,
My technique is to always drill a #40 hole, then enlarge it with a #30 drill. If it needs to be larger I go next to a #20.
This "Step Drilling" tends to make nice round holes. It does not, however, make the final hole exactly where the #40 hole was drilled. Some factors I don't really understand tend to make the hole wander.
That is why it works best to "Line Drill" the holes when starting either with a clean sheet of metal or one with a larger hole on top.
Best regards,
Paul
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:57 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: copy hole pattern?
So, with this thingy in place, you drill a 3/32" hole, and then enlarge it to #21 / 20 as need be ?
And same principle for #30, I presume...
Neat!
Carlos
On 13 August 2010 22:42, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)>
Yep, Look here:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=59265&row=431
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
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0123456789
[quote][b]
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: copy hole pattern? |
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[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]So, with this thingy in place, you drill a 3/32" hole, and then enlarge it to #21 / 20 as need be ?
And same principle for #30, I presume..
Neat!
Carlos
On 13 August 2010 22:42, Ron Lendon <ron> wrote:
That's how it works. Your drills need to be sharp split point and spinning fast (my Makita 6501 spins at 4500rpm) to hold the center. Let the drill do the work and don't push to hard when marking the centers.
As Paul alludes to Line drilling in steps works best. If you get the hang of this though, you can do as I do, mark the centers using this tool, drill a few of them and get some silver clecos in them, (try for every other hole). Once you have the part held in place drill all the pilot holes, open to #30 and copper cleco, remove silver clecoes and step holes to #30, #20 then black cleco, remove copper and open those holes to #20.
Before any drilling, lots of clamps to hold things where they belong. Drilling holes in light sheet metal will drift if you don't keep the drill bit perpendicular to the sheet, again use light pressure and let the drill do the work. Replace worn drills with new ones, and use the split points for the pilot holes, they cut from the center. You might also need a Tight Fit Drill Kit, I use mine all the time in tight places.
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_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ |
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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Folks, I would like to thank all of you for your guidance and support.
Plenty of good ideas!
Happy building
Carlos
do not archive
On 12 August 2010 20:57, Carlos Sa <carlossa52(at)gmail.com (carlossa52(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron (6F1-3).
(In case you are interested, I posted pictures so the folks at ZAC could see the damage and recommend a fix - which they did, but I decided not to fix.
http://picasaweb.google.com/carlossa52/ElongatedHolesRearSkinLowerLongeron# )
Thankfully, tere's nothing wrong with the bottom skin, left longeron and left skin.
So, obviously, I want to keep those.
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of) holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes matching those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of elongating the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh...
[b]
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Guys; A strap duplicator makes the same size hole as the small stud that fits into the hole you wish to duplicate so a #30 duplicates a #30 drilled hole, a #40 duplicates a #40 and so on. Drilling a smaller hole first is wasted effort.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 8/14/2010 8:28:34 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ron.lendon(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com>
[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]So, with this thingy in place, you drill a 3/32" hole, and then enlarge it to #21 / 20 as need be ?
And same principle for #30, I presume..
Neat!
Carlos
On 13 August 2010 22:42, Ron Lendon wrote:
That's how it works. Your drills need to be sharp split point and spinning fast (my Makita 6501 spins at 4500rpm) to hold the center. Let the drill do the work and don't push to hard when marking the centers.
As Paul alludes to Line drilling in steps works best. If you get the hang of this though, you can do as I do, mark the centers using this tool, drill a few of them and get some silver clecos in them, (try for every other hole). Once you have the part held in place drill all the pilot holes, open to #30 and copper cleco, remove silver clecoes and step holes to #30, #20 then black cleco, remove copper and open those holes to #20.
Before any drilling, lots of clamps to hold things where they belong. Drilling holes in light sheet metal will drift if you don't keep the drill bit perpendicular to the sheet, again use light pressure and let the drill do the work. Replace worn drills with new ones, and use the split points for the pilot holes, they cut from the center. You might also need a Tight Fit Drill Kit, I use mine all the time in tight places.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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jaybannist(at)cs.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: copy hole pattern? |
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Here is my rendition of a home made hole finder.
I have made several of these. The dimensions are not critical. The two pieces should be clecoed together before drilling a #40 pilot hole through both pieces for the "finder" end. They are taken apart and a #30 hole drilled in the bottom piece and an A4 rivet set in that hole. The two pieces are put together again and riveted.
The A4 "finder" rivet shown on the drawing has a "tail" that just fits in a #20 hole for an A5 rivet.. For #30 holes for A4 rivets, I use an A3 "finder' rivet.
I use a #40 drill, just to make a starting center. After the hole finder is removed, I drill for the hole for the rivet.
Jay Bannister
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