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Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

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Dave Disney

Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
Location: Weston-Super-Mare

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Hi, 

I'm a newby to Zodiacs. I was given a ride in a Rotax powered 601 HD and found it an enchanting aircraft. It took off from a relatively short grass strip (Westonzoyland for those in the UK) with two pretty beefy blokes on board. 



I loved the central column (my Airtourer has the same arrangement) and after an hours flying it had only used 15 litres of mogas - excellent. My Airtourer is aerobatic so has pretty sharp handling but the Zodiac was up there with it and had the advantage of better load carrying qualities, better short field performance and much better fuel consumption, whats more it's an LAA aircraft rather than CofA.



I've started to research the type looking at old magazine flight tests and scrolling around on the Zenair web site etc. But I'm a little confused. I know the difference between the HD and the HDS, I know the XL was a new design that has not been without its problems, but for the life of me I cant figure out the differencies between the XL and the 650 other than the canopy - can somebody please enlighten me or tell me where I can find out the information.



Whilst I'm showing my ignorance perhaps some kind sole can offer a view on the right aircraft for me. I do not need to comply with LSA (I have a full PPL and medical so do not need to be restricted by 1320 MAUW and 120 knots). I want an aircraft that is 'buildable' preferably in metal maybe as a plans built, it must be powered by either a Rotax 912 or possibly a Jabriu 3300. Weight carrying is more important than speed and it must be able to operate from a 500/600 meter grass strip. I know that some of the zenair range fit the bill.



Regards



Dave

Larry Webber

Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 63
Location: West Kingston Rhode Island

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Hi Dave  welcome aboard     the best site to check out the differences between 601xl 

 and 650 is zenithair.com you can see all the changes  i hope you chose the zenith aircraft

 its a great  company to deal with  even 10 years down the road .     good luck 

 



 

 Larry



  

 > Subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk

 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:58:38 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Disney" <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk>

 

 Hi, 

 I'm a newby to Zodiacs. I was given a ride in a Rotax powered 601 HD and found it an enchanting aircraft. It took off from a relatively short grass strip (Westonzoyland for those in the UK) with two pretty beefy blokes on board. 

 

 I loved the central column (my Airtourer has the same arrangement) and after an hours flying it had only used 15 litres of mogas - excellent. My Airtourer is aerobatic so has pretty sharp handling but the Zodiac was up there with it and had the advantage of better load carrying qualities, better short field performance and much better fuel consumption, whats more it's an LAA aircraft rather than CofA.

 

 I've started to research the type looking at old magazine flight tests and scrolling around on the Zenair web site etc. But I'm a little confused. I know the difference between the HD and the HDS, I know the XL was a new design that has not been without its problems, but for the life of me I cant figure out the differencies between the XL and the 650 other than the canopy - can somebody please enlighten me or tell me where I can find out the information.

 

 Whilst I'm showing my ignorance perhaps some kind sole can offer a view on the right aircraft for me. I do not need to comply with LSA (I have a full PPL and medical so do not need to be restricted by 1320 MAUW and 120 knots). I want an aircraft that is 'buildable' preferably in metal maybe as a plans built, it must be powered by either a Rotax 912 or possibly a Jabriu 3300. Weight carrying is more important than speed and it must be able to operate from a 500/600 meter grass strip. I know that some of the zenair range fit the bill.

 

 Regards

 

 Dave

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309021#309021

 

 

 

 

&gt=======================
	


&g==================

[quote] 

 

 

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
how do you eat an elephant ? one bite at a time

Z601c(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Dave, it seems to me the big difference is the canopy. There's a little "Beef-

up" here and there, in the 650, but I'm not sure how important that really is, 

with the modification kit out, and all but mandated. I think the mod kit pretty 

much incorporated the beef-up.



The other difference I see is that the XL is now a plans-only design, but the 

650 is available as a kit. The cost of the 650 kit was a jump up from the cost 

of the XL kit. If an XL were built from scratch, I'm not sure how that would 

compare to a 650 built from scratch.



I didn't personally like the 650 canopy, because there is nothing between the 

baggage area and the canopy. That means the baggage will scuff the canopy. 

Others liked the increased headroom of the 650. 



You pays your money, you makes your choice....



On Monday 16 August 2010 14:58:38 you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi,

 I'm a newby to Zodiacs. I was given a ride in a Rotax powered 601 HD and

 found it an enchanting aircraft. It took off from a relatively short grass

 strip (Westonzoyland for those in the UK) with two pretty beefy blokes on

 board.

 

 I loved the central column (my Airtourer has the same arrangement) and

 after an hours flying it had only used 15 litres of mogas - excellent. My

 Airtourer is aerobatic so has pretty sharp handling but the Zodiac was up

 there with it and had the advantage of better load carrying qualities,

 better short field performance and much better fuel consumption, whats

 more it's an LAA aircraft rather than CofA.

 

 I've started to research the type looking at old magazine flight tests and

 scrolling around on the Zenair web site etc. But I'm a little confused. I

 know the difference between the HD and the HDS, I know the XL was a new

 design that has not been without its problems, but for the life of me I

 cant figure out the differencies between the XL and the 650 other than the

 canopy - can somebody please enlighten me or tell me where I can find out

 the information.

 

 Whilst I'm showing my ignorance perhaps some kind sole can offer a view on

 the right aircraft for me. I do not need to comply with LSA (I have a full

 PPL and medical so do not need to be restricted by 1320 MAUW and 120

 knots). I want an aircraft that is 'buildable' preferably in metal maybe

 as a plans built, it must be powered by either a Rotax 912 or possibly a

 Jabriu 3300. Weight carrying is more important than speed and it must be

 able to operate from a 500/600 meter grass strip. I know that some of the

 zenair range fit the bill.

 

 Regards

 

 Dave


	


-- 

==================================================================

                           Jim B. Belcher

                Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

               BS,MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                               A&P/IA

                General Radiotelephone Certificate

                    Semi-proficient Househusband



         For an explanation of email policies, please go to:

                http://www.anemicaardvark.com/email

==================================================================



-- 

========================================

                                       Jim B. Belcher

                              BS,MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                                            A&P/IA

                             General Radio Telephone Certificate

                                   Instrument Rated Pilot

                           Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

                        

========================================

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Dave

                We have a 601HD but with a 0 200 so I cannot comment on the 

Rotax powered version performance but before committing yourself I would 

check with the LAA which versions are on their approved list now, they 

approved a different mod for the XL to get them flying in UK & I don't know 

if the latest US kit or drawings are approved.

 There may be a European version available the LAA should know. But if it is 

not approved it will increase time & cost to get a permit to fly.

do not archive

Clive

Rays  G CBDG 400 Hrs

---

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Of course you should check locally, but the Zenith approved modes 

include the LAA stuff, plus a lot more.

I've never heard of updated plans for the 601 or 650 that includes the 

modes, they are in an update package.

I've also never heard of an updated kit for the 650 that would come with 

the modes installed.  I not sure you could even purchase a 650 kit at 

this point in time.   It seems like Zenith would announce  a new kit , 

and they never have that I'm aware of.



There seems to have been a change in nomenclature at Zenith

There used to be the 650XL and the 601XL and I have both sets of planes 

to prove it.

Now the 650 is no longer called the XL by Zenith (according to a phone 

call I had a month or so ago).

I'm not sure if there still remains a 650XLB (upgraded) or if it's just 

called a 650 (with or without B).

But there is still officially a 601XL and 601XLB.

As far as I know all 601's are also called Zodiacs, but HD/HDS I'm not 

so familiar with.



Changes from 601 to 650:

1 Rudder changed to look "sleeker" (cosmetic, backward and forward 

compatible)

2 Anti-oil canning stiffeners in wings and fuse (cosmetic, and can be 

retro fitted to 601)

3 Canopy: 650 has more head room and, more importantly, a roll bar and 

improved (in my opinion) latch.

    This is a substantial change to structure and sheet metal and plastic.

4 The wing incidence is changed slightly (2degress I think) for better 

forward visibility.  Zenith stated early

    on when the 650 was announced that 601 wings could be used on the 

650.  Since the angle change is built

    into the main spar, I'm not sure how that will work, but hope to 

find out one of these years when I start the fuselage.



That's about it.  I think the 601/650 is a great plane with an 

unfortunate history.  People who fly it really seem to love it.

The only "off" notes I've heard about flying is the with the S-LSA 

model, due to weight issues with the 0200.  In the US, the S-LSA max 

weight is the law, whereas with conventionally certified plans, its more 

of a suggestion/liability issue.  So going over max weight by even 1kg 

is a violation in an S-LSA, where it's no big deal in a regular plane or 

experimental.



Ron

On 08/17/2010 11:33 AM, Clive Richards wrote:

[quote] 

 <s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk>



 Dave

                We have a 601HD but with a 0 200 so I cannot comment on 

 the Rotax powered version performance but before committing yourself I 

 would check with the LAA which versions are on their approved list 

 now, they approved a different mod for the XL to get them flying in UK 

 & I don't know if the latest US kit or drawings are approved.

 There may be a European version available the LAA should know. But if 

 it is not approved it will increase time & cost to get a permit to fly.

 do not archive

 Clive

 Rays  G CBDG 400 Hrs

 ---

Pete54

Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 19
Location: Scotland

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Unfortunately the US mods to the xl are not yet approved by the LAA.  There are a number of UK builders of the xl who are waiting for the approval (the ones that bought US kits rather than the CZAW variant) - they are in a difficult position as the airframe is heavier than the CZAW version (mainly the undercarriage) and getting the approval for a 600kg aircraft rather than 560kg would help.  The other difference in the UK is that the mauw is tightly defined and with the UK mods set with a maximum fuselage weight of 494kg.

This has quite an effect if the aircraft is a 'little' heavy due to its construction.  The hd does not have a similar restriction.



There is a test about to be undertaken of the revised centre section to try and 'prove' the US upgrade for the xl.  AIUI there are concerns that the wider distance between the centre section may result in bending of the wing attachment bolts, the testing is intended to resolve that question.



For what its worth I suspect the higher canopy of the 650 is quite a good idea and may even improve the performance - my xl has a high suction area at the rear of the canopy - with the ribbers venting air from the cockpit once the speed goes over about 115kts.



Of course the hd suffers from none of these problems!

_________________
Pete Morris

Dave Disney

Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
Location: Weston-Super-Mare

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Thank you to all of you who have replied both on and off list.



I have contacted the South UK agent for the Zodiac and had an interesting discussion with him about the various models. Two things have come out of that.



1 In the UK our LAA will not allow the use of the aluminium undercarriage due to its weight, so an XL can only be built using a composite undercarriage as it used to be. They are currently working to resolve this as the composite gear has different mountings and was supplied by CZAW so a new supplier is needed.



2 In the UK an XL is only certified up to 560Kg MAUW - this is a big loss of useful load.



In the light of the above I am concentrating my efforts towards the HDS. If I go ahead with this I have to decide between tri gear and taildragger - anybody any thoughts.



Also - would it be possible to fit a 650 canopy on an HDS - has anyone done this yet?

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:23 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Michael Herder is doing just that:



http://tinyurl.com/237a835

  



  Carlos

  CH601-HD, plans

  

On 24 August 2010 06:20, Dave Disney <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk (davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:

[quote]  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Disney" <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk (davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 Thank you to all of you who have replied both on and off list.

 

 I have contacted the South UK agent for the Zodiac and had an interesting discussion with him about the various models. Two things have come out of that.

 

 1 In the UK our LAA will not allow the use of the aluminium undercarriage due to its weight, so an XL can only be built using a composite undercarriage as it used to be. They are currently working to resolve this as the composite gear has different mountings and was supplied by CZAW so a new supplier is needed.

   

 2 In the UK an XL is only certified up to 560Kg MAUW - this is a big loss of useful load.

 

 In the light of the above I am concentrating my efforts towards the HDS. If I go ahead with this I have to decide between tri gear and taildragger - anybody any thoughts.

 

 Also - would it be possible to fit a 650 canopy on an HDS - has anyone done this yet?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309969#309969

 

      

 [b]

jlatimer1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:54 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Here is a link to a photo of Mike Herder's HD with 650 canopy from the 

zenith.aero site.

Jerry



http://www.zenith.aero/photo/moving-day?xg_source=activity

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Dave Disney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Also - would it be possible to fit a 650 canopy on an HDS - has anyone 

 done this yet?

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Hi Carlos,

I'd stick with the tri-gear. There's little loss in airspeed, but a lot 

of control on the ground with the steerable nose gear.

The idea of putting some of the landing and rolling impacts at the tail, 

climbing into and out of a tail dragger pose some sobering

thoughts.  The airframe is light to begin with. It's not like a steel 

tube structure and I don't think the tail dragger option is a great

compromise. I find steering positive and certain with nose gear. I land 

on the mains and roll out well before the nose

gear settles to touch. Take off is easy with elevator authority raising 

the nose gear quickly, the roll out to take off is more effective

than the tail.dragger. The tail dragger you have to either three-point 

off or raise the tail and then lift off.

Guess that I'm biased?



Regards,

Larry McFarland   601HDS and loving it.

macsmachine.com



Carlos Sa wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Michael Herder is doing just that:



 *http://tinyurl.com/237a835*



 Carlos

 *CH601-HD, plans

 *

 On 24 August 2010 06:20, Dave Disney <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk 

 <mailto:davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:



     

     <davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk <mailto:davedisney(at)yahoo.co.uk>>



     Thank you to all of you who have replied both on and off list.



     I have contacted the South UK agent for the Zodiac and had an

     interesting discussion with him about the various models. Two

     things have come out of that.



     1 In the UK our LAA will not allow the use of the aluminium

     undercarriage due to its weight, so an XL can only be built using

     a composite undercarriage as it used to be. They are currently

     working to resolve this as the composite gear has different

     mountings and was supplied by CZAW so a new supplier is needed.



     2 In the UK an XL is only certified up to 560Kg MAUW - this is a

     big loss of useful load.



     In the light of the above I am concentrating my efforts towards

     the HDS. If I go ahead with this I have to decide between tri gear

     and taildragger - anybody any thoughts.



     Also - would it be possible to fit a 650 canopy on an HDS - has

     anyone done this yet?





     Read this topic online here:



     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309969#309969

 *

 *

Z601c(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

I guess I'd say there's no such thing as a free lunch. Weight is important, 

and so is ease of takeoff/landing. 



I'm building an XL as a tri-gear, but I entertained doing it as a tail dragger 

very seriously. The deciding factors were being on a mountain strip with a lot 

of crosswinds, and wanting to build an airplane that my wife could fly easily.



On Tuesday 24 August 2010 09:15:08 you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Carlos,

 I'd stick with the tri-gear. There's little loss in airspeed, but a lot

 of control on the ground with the steerable nose gear.

 The idea of putting some of the landing and rolling impacts at the tail,

 climbing into and out of a tail dragger pose some sobering

 thoughts.  The airframe is light to begin with. It's not like a steel

 tube structure and I don't think the tail dragger option is a great

 compromise. I find steering positive and certain with nose gear. I land

 on the mains and roll out well before the nose

 gear settles to touch. Take off is easy with elevator authority raising

 the nose gear quickly, the roll out to take off is more effective

 than the tail.dragger. The tail dragger you have to either three-point

 off or raise the tail and then lift off.

 Guess that I'm biased?


	


-- 

========================================

                                       Jim B. Belcher

                              BS,MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                                            A&P/IA

                             General Radio Telephone Certificate

                                   Instrument Rated Pilot

                           Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

                        

========================================

Pete54

Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 19
Location: Scotland

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Before my xl I owned an HD with taildragger gear and an O-200.  A very tame taildragger and sufficiently rugged to have spent all its life (over 600 hrs) on rough grass strips.



Of all the taildraggers I have flown it was by far the least likely to bite.



Fitting the 650 canopy should be a fairly straight forward mod - even under the LAA system.



There is an HDS based at my airfield and generally I am somewhat unimpressed.  It is not that much faster than an hd but it climbs poorly (with an 80hp Rotax) and it glides like a brick.  As a taildragger I suspect it would be a poor choice.  I've heard they are very different with vortex generators - but the LAA regard them as the 'work of the deveil' and so getting approval would be a real challenge.

_________________
Pete Morris

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: Zodiac - 601 hd/hds, xl, 650 - Confused

Dave

Note the HD & HDS MAUW in UK is 1200 lbs i.e. 544 KG. but will have a useful 

load with a Rotax up front.

 Their is a HD tail dragger for sale at Sleap see LAA Mag but it has a heavy 

Lycoming up front, the owner may be willing to give you information on tail 

draggers.

Clive

do not archive



---

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