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Engine roughness Engine roughness

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hgmckay

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

OK guys, We have checked all  the wiring everyone has suggested for continuity:

  

 "P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the  ignition pick-ups, and the two red wires going down to the engine (these two red  wires are grounded in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram,  so we just disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and  ohmed each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the  red wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the exact  same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness to it. I ran  it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop in rpm at  2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch and closed  the right mag switch, and the engine died (was killed) immediately. Same  problem!! 

  

 Dick you suggested switching all the wires from  one ignition module to the other. Are they identical and can they be switched  without harming the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is  on the other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on  the same mag, what does that tell us?

  

 Still searching,

 Hugh McKay

 Allegro 2000 ELSA

 Rotax 912 UL 

 N661WW

  



  From: Catz631(at)aol.com (Catz631(at)aol.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughnessEngine  roughness

 



 Hugh,

  Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to  the other and see if the problem follows.

                                     Dick Maddux

                                     Milton Fl

[quote]



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[b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Hugh, Has anyone tried to verify you have spark by grounding out the plug and trying to see spark jumping the gap on the plug recently? I remember this from Rotax Cert school. Attempting to do this can kill an itty bitty diode in the ignition module and since the module is potted there is no other way to fix it but to replace the module. What symptoms this blown diode would exhibit was never discussed. Hope this helps.

Rick Girard



On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net (hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		       OK guys, We have checked all  the wiring everyone has suggested for continuity:

  

 "P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the  ignition pick-ups, and the two red wires going down to the engine (these two red  wires are grounded in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram,  so we just disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and  ohmed each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the  red wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the exact  same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness to it. I ran  it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop in rpm at  2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch and closed  the right mag switch, and the engine died (was killed) immediately. Same  problem!! 

  

 Dick you suggested switching all the wires from  one ignition module to the other. Are they identical and can they be switched  without harming the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is  on the other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on  the same mag, what does that tell us?

  

 Still searching,

 Hugh McKay

 Allegro 2000 ELSA

 Rotax 912 UL 

 N661WW

  



  From: Catz631(at)aol.com (Catz631(at)aol.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughnessEngine  roughness

 



 Hugh,

  Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to  the other and see if the problem follows.

                                     Dick Maddux

                                     Milton Fl

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Hi Rick

"Has anyone tried to verify you have spark by grounding out the plug and trying to see spark jumping the gap on the plug recently? I remember this from Rotax Cert school. Attempting to do this can kill an itty bitty diode in the ignition module and since the module is potted there is no other way to fix it but to replace the module. What symptoms this blown diode would exhibit was never discussed. Hope this helps. 

Rick Girard"



This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you sure you don't mean pulling plug wire off spark plug and turning over motor where the plug wire can't find ground?? (I have heard this warning on many electronic ignitions)



Or perhaps you mean completely shorting out plug wire? (I never heard this before)



Allowing a plug to make a spark is exactly what is supposed to happen, no?



Ron Parigoris

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

I tried to explain it as it was explained in school, but perhaps I should have given more detail.The warning was to not try the old 39 Ford method of pulling a spark plug and grounding it on the engine case to try and see a spark. If the plug does not ground, the energy has nowhere else to go but through this diode in the module which will kill it.

 Sorry for the confusion.

Incidentally, the proper way to check for spark on any Rotax engine is to put an ignition spark tester in the spark plug circuit. The tester has a light driven by the spark energy, it's bright enough to see in broad daylight, and the circuit is complete so there is no potential for damage to the ignition modules. You can get spark testers from almost any auto tool supplier for under $10 (I think Snap On has one for about $15, but that's Snap On) Harbor Freight regularly has them on sale for $1.99, but their quality is so spotty I don't know if I'd risk an $800+ ignition module on one.

 I hope that is a more complete explanation.

Rick



On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:01 PM, rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>

  

 Hi Rick

 "Has anyone tried to verify you have spark by grounding out the plug and trying to see spark jumping the gap on the plug recently? I remember this from Rotax Cert school. Attempting to do this can kill an itty bitty diode in the ignition module and since the module is potted there is no other way to fix it but to replace the module. What symptoms this blown diode would exhibit was never discussed. Hope this helps.

  Rick Girard"

 

 This doesn't make much sense to me. Are you sure you don't mean pulling plug wire off spark plug and turning over motor where the plug wire can't find ground?? (I have heard this warning on many electronic ignitions)

  

 Or perhaps you mean completely shorting out plug wire? (I never heard this before)

 

 Allowing a plug to make a spark is exactly what is supposed to happen, no?

 

 Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309696#309696

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

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 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM



 



  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Hi Rick



Thx. for the clarification. 



Ron Parigoris



Do not archive

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Hugh

                 I have only looked a while ago at an engine we have on the bench as plane is not  built yet but think you will find the modals are Identical and as they are  connected by plugs & Sockets you can swap them over. Our engine is an old  one & has a different arrangement on the plugs to the current ones so if you  need spares you need to get the correct one.

 From your test the left module is faulty as when you kill the right module  the engine stops

 Swap the P leads plugs at module end & if fault swaps moduals  then switch or P lead is faulty.

  You previously mentioned disturbing a trigger coil lead if this lead  has gone open circuit this will stop that module working as it fires 2  cylinders.

  I presume all was working ok originally but have you disturbed the  plugs ?

 I notice from the manual that 2 plugs are fired at the same time by the  ignition coils so a faulty open plug will stop the engine if that modual only is  selected.

 do not archive

  Clive 

 From: Hugh McKay (hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net) 

  

 [quote]   To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)    

   Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:45    AM

   Subject: Re: Re:    Engine roughness Engine roughness

   



   OK guys, We have checked all    the wiring everyone has suggested for continuity:

    

   "P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the    ignition pick-ups, and the two red wires going down to the engine (these two    red wires are grounded in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram,    so we just disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and    ohmed each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the    red wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the    exact same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness to    it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop    in rpm at 2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch    and closed the right mag switch, and the engine died (was killed)    immediately. Same problem!! 

    

   Dick you suggested switching all the wires from    one ignition module to the other. Are they identical and can they be switched    without harming the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is    on the other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is    on the same mag, what does that tell us?

    

   Still searching,

   Hugh McKay

   Allegro 2000 ELSA

   Rotax 912 UL 

   N661WW

      



      From: Catz631(at)aol.com (Catz631(at)aol.com) 

   Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM

   To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)    

   Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughnessEngine    roughness

   



   Hugh,

    Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to    the other and see if the problem follows.

                                         Dick Maddux

                                         Milton Fl

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

hgmckay

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and  others:

  

  I have found the problem and fixed it. I  took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to  systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top  of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This  time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module  coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I  disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an  open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the  end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not  broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey  wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the  connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the  strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps  showing up on these engines.

  

 Anyway, I cut the old connector completely  off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red  wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured  everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is  "purring like a kitten"! 

  

 Going flying tomorrow!!

  Thanks,

 Hugh McKay

  



  From: Clive Richards (s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk) 

 Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:00 PM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine  roughness

 



 Hugh

                 I have only looked a while ago at an engine we have on the bench as plane is not  built yet but think you will find the modals are Identical and as they are  connected by plugs & Sockets you can swap them over. Our engine is an old  one & has a different arrangement on the plugs to the current ones so if you  need spares you need to get the correct one.

 From your test the left module is faulty as when you kill the right module  the engine stops

 Swap the P leads plugs at module end & if fault swaps moduals  then switch or P lead is faulty.

  You previously mentioned disturbing a trigger coil lead if this lead  has gone open circuit this will stop that module working as it fires 2  cylinders.

  I presume all was working ok originally but have you disturbed the  plugs ?

 I notice from the manual that 2 plugs are fired at the same time by the  ignition coils so a faulty open plug will stop the engine if that modual only is  selected.

 do not archive

  Clive 

 From: Hugh McKay (hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net) 

  

 [quote]   To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)    

   Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:45    AM

   Subject: Re: Re:    Engine roughness Engine roughness

   



   OK guys, We have checked all    the wiring everyone has suggested for continuity:

    

   "P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the    ignition pick-ups, and the two red wires going down to the engine (these two    red wires are grounded in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram,    so we just disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and    ohmed each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the    red wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the    exact same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness to    it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop    in rpm at 2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch    and closed the right mag switch, and the engine died (was killed)    immediately. Same problem!! 

    

   Dick you suggested switching all the wires from    one ignition module to the other. Are they identical and can they be switched    without harming the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is    on the other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is    on the same mag, what does that tell us?

    

   Still searching,

   Hugh McKay

   Allegro 2000 ELSA

   Rotax 912 UL 

   N661WW

      



      From: Catz631(at)aol.com (Catz631(at)aol.com) 

   Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM

   To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)    

   Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughnessEngine    roughness

   



   Hugh,

    Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to    the other and see if the problem follows.

                                         Dick Maddux

                                         Milton Fl

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:08 am Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Hi Hugh,

  

 Glad to hear that you  have fixed your problem.  On the subject of crimping it is considered bad  practice to tin the conductor before crimping because the solder can flow under  the crimping pressure and result in a loose joint. Some types of "open"  connectors where you wrap tangs around the cable, can be made more secure by  soldering after crimping.  This is not necessary with barrel type crimp  connectors.  A properly crimped connector with good support for the  insulator as well as the conductor, should give good service provided it is  protected from vibratiion.  A soldered connection runs the risk of the  solder wicking up the cable inside the insulation and creating a stress point  which will result in a broken conductor if there is any vibration caused by a  poorly supported cable.

  

 Whatever method you use,  the important thing for electrical wiring in the engine area is to make  absolutely sure that nothing moves  when the engine is running.  Lots  and lots of cable ties is the answer.  Copper work hardens when subjected  to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break.

  

 Regards

  

 Brian Davies

  

 Europa  912ULS



   From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh  McKay

Sent: 25 August 2010 01:37

To:  rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Engine roughness Engine roughness

 

 OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and  others:

  

  I have found the problem and fixed it. I  took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to  systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top  of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This  time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module  coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I  disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an  open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the  end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not  broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey  wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the  connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the  strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps  showing up on these engines.

  

 Anyway, I cut the old connector completely  off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red  wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured  everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is  "purring like a kitten"! 

  

 Going flying tomorrow!!

  Thanks,

 Hugh McKay

  



   

   [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:07 am Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

I second Brian's thoughts on soldering. Use good quality PIDG crimp connectors and a good crimper, not the auto parts $4.99 special type cheapies, and you won't have wire strand breakage problems. Soldering just gives the wire a hard edge to start the break, particularly in a high vibration environment. See AC 43.13. 



Rick Girard



On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		          Hi Hugh,

  

 Glad to hear that you  have fixed your problem.  On the subject of crimping it is considered bad  practice to tin the conductor before crimping because the solder can flow under  the crimping pressure and result in a loose joint. Some types of "open"  connectors where you wrap tangs around the cable, can be made more secure by  soldering after crimping.  This is not necessary with barrel type crimp  connectors.  A properly crimped connector with good support for the  insulator as well as the conductor, should give good service provided it is  protected from vibratiion.  A soldered connection runs the risk of the  solder wicking up the cable inside the insulation and creating a stress point  which will result in a broken conductor if there is any vibration caused by a  poorly supported cable.

  

 Whatever method you use,  the important thing for electrical wiring in the engine area is to make  absolutely sure that nothing moves  when the engine is running.  Lots  and lots of cable ties is the answer.  Copper work hardens when subjected  to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break.

  

 Regards

  

 Brian Davies

  

 Europa  912ULS



   From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Hugh  McKay

Sent: 25 August 2010 01:37

To:  rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re:  Engine roughness Engine roughness

 

 OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and  others:

  

  I have found the problem and fixed it. I  took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to  systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top  of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This  time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module  coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I  disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an  open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the  end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not  broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey  wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the  connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the  strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps  showing up on these engines.

  

 Anyway, I cut the old connector completely  off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red  wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured  everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is  "purring like a kitten"! 

  

 Going flying tomorrow!!

  Thanks,

 Hugh McKay

  



   

    	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

 - G.K. Chesterton

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Brian:

Very good post.

If I may add to your post...

The basic rule of securing items is:  Movable items to Movable AND Fixed to Fixed.

 What that means is:  If you are securing say a wire that is coming out of the firewall secure it to the engine mount.  If you are securing say a EGT or CHT probe secure it to the engine side of the mount first.

 The difference being the engine is on the movable vibration dampening side of the engine mount.

THEN if you have to go to a Fixed point or visa-versa just make a service loop to remove strain and give flexability.

 



Here is a trick that I have been doing for YEARS (about 15 of them).  When it comes to crimping and soldering:

1 - Use the proper crimp tool.

The cheep dimpling type you find at Home Depot is NOT the type you want to use.  They create stress points.  Yes, a good one CRIMPS not dimples the connector and wire.  And Yes, they cost a bit.

 



2 - O!  The trick:  On your battery lugs, do the following:

a> Clean the connection very well.

b> Even if the connection is a used connection this can be done - Clean it very well - I use MEK. 

 If it is OIL soaked, you can soak the cable in mineral spirits and them rinse with Alcohol.

c>  After you crimp the lug onto the wire - SOLDER - Yes, solder but here is HOW:

Solder ONLY the end of the wire next to the mounting hole.

 Use Silver Solder - 3% or higher.  

AND don't use excessive heat.  

You will probably need to use a propane torch WITH a small pointed flame.  

This is to keep the heat concentrated.  AND even a 500 Watt gun does not develop enough heat.

 d> REMEMBER - Only enough solder to cover the END of the cable  Let me repeat that.... SOLDER ONLY THE RING END OF THE LUG & WIRE.

DO NOT FLOW THE SOLDER ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE LUG.

 What this does for you is - Makes both a excellent Mechanical and Electrical connection.

It keep OIL from getting into the cable.

Over the years you will have a fantastic connection and CORROSION can not start within the crimp.

 



REMEMBER - CLEAN the connection before and ESPECIALLY AFTER soldering.  

Again for this type of connection I use a 50/50 mixture of Alcohol & MEK.

Hope this helps the builders out there.

 



Barry

[quote] Whatever method you use,  the important thing for electrical wiring in the engine area is to make  absolutely sure that nothing moves  when the engine is running.  Lots  and lots of cable ties is the answer.  Copper work hardens when subjected  to repeated bending and will become brittle and then break.

  

 Regards

  

 Brian Davies

  

 Europa  912ULS



   From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Hugh  McKay

Sent: 25 August 2010 01:37

To:  rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re:  Engine roughness Engine roughness

 

 OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and  others:

  

  I have found the problem and fixed it. I  took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to  systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top  of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This  time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module  coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I  disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an  open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the  end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not  broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey  wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the  connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the  strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps  showing up on these engines.

  

 Anyway, I cut the old connector completely  off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red  wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured  everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is  "purring like a kitten"! 

  

 Going flying tomorrow!!

  Thanks,

 Hugh McKay

  



   

   

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blackmore(at)platinum.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:25 am Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Hugh,

 Actually tinning is not advisable in these wire  connections.  When you tin, the solder runs down into the wire beyond the  crimping, setting up a stiffness which will cause the wire to break at the end  of the tinning, up inside the insulation.

 Considered a bad practice.

 Dave Austin  - 601 HDS 912 UL

  

 



    [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: Engine roughness Engine roughness

Oops!  Not tinning the crimp connector in radio is poor practice but.... airplanes are another quintal of fish!   Airplanes, which always have a lot of vibration, should never be tinned at a crimp.  The very fact that this is where you had a problem should show you that it is a place to be careful of because of vibration.  

   

If the wires had been tinned what would happen is all the flex caused by vibration would occur at the very end of the wicking of the tinning and cause a break to occur quickly at that location.  If the wires broke at the crimp; connector then it probably means the strands in the wire were too heavy and you may have to look at either physically  supporting the wire or finding a piece of the same AWG that is constructed of more strands.  

   

I know it sounds something like leaning into a right hook but it is true, this is a place where you don’t want to tin the wires.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh McKay

 Sent: August 24, 2010 10:07 PM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness  

  

  

     

OK guys, Thom, Ron, Rick, Roger, Dick, Clive and others:  

    

   

    

 I have found the problem and fixed it. I took all of your advice and counsel and went back again and began to systematically check each wire especially at or near the plug connectors on top of the engine. I went back and re-checked all the wiring one more time. This time I found a small break in the grey wire that goes into the A module coming from the connector to the red power wire coming up from the engine. I disconnected the plug and began to ohm the grey wire to ground. I got an open circuit. When I closely examined the crimped end of the connector on the end of the grey wire there were only a few strands of conductor that were not broke. Most were broke. I noticed also that the ends of the grey wires were not "tinned" before being crimped to the connector. They were just stripped and the connector plug crimped on the strands. This is very poor practice, and no wonder this type problem keeps showing up on these engines.  

    

   

    

Anyway, I cut the old connector completely off, "tinned" the bare ends of the brown wire and and the red wire, crimped on a new insulated male/female spade connector, secured everything and fired the engine up. Every thing is now working normal. She is "purring like a kitten"!   

    

   

    

Going flying tomorrow!!  

    

 Thanks,  

    

Hugh McKay  

      

   

      

From: Clive Richards (s.clive.richards(at)homecall.co.uk)   

    

Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:00 PM  

    

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness  

  

  

    

   

    

Hugh  

    

               I have only looked a while ago at an engine we have on the bench as plane is not built yet but think you will find the modals are Identical and as they are connected by plugs & Sockets you can swap them over. Our engine is an old one & has a different arrangement on the plugs to the current ones so if you need spares you need to get the correct one.  

    

From your test the left module is faulty as when you kill the right module the engine stops  

    

Swap the P leads plugs at module end & if fault swaps moduals then switch or P lead is faulty.  

    

 You previously mentioned disturbing a trigger coil lead if this lead has gone open circuit this will stop that module working as it fires 2 cylinders.  

    

 I presume all was working ok originally but have you disturbed the plugs ?  

    

I notice from the manual that 2 plugs are fired at the same time by the ignition coils so a faulty open plug will stop the engine if that modual only is selected.  

    

do not archive  

    

 Clive   

    

From: Hugh McKay (hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net)   

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 1:45 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughness Engine roughness  

    

   

    

OK guys, We have checked all the wiring everyone has suggested for continuity:  

    

   

    

"P" leads, Kill Switches, wires to all the ignition pick-ups, and the two red wires going down to the engine (these two red wires are grounded in the engine per the Rotax 912 engine wiring diagram, so we just disconnected one end of each red wire on top of the engine and ohmed each wire to ground and we got continuity. Therefore we assume the red wires are good. We put everything back together and the engine did the exact same thing. The engine started and ran, but had a slight roughness to it. I ran it up to 2200 rpm and killed the left mag switch. There was no drop in rpm at 2200. The engine continued to run. I then opened the left mag switch and closed the right mag switch, and the engine died (was killed) immediately. Same problem!!   

    

   

    

Dick you suggested switching all the wires from one ignition module to the other. Are they identical and can they be switched without harming the engine? If we do this and the problem still occurs, but is on the other mag, what does this tell us? If the problem still occurs but is on the same mag, what does that tell us?  

    

   

    

Still searching,  

    

Hugh McKay  

    

Allegro 2000 ELSA  

    

Rotax 912 UL   

    

N661WW  

      

   

      

From: Catz631(at)aol.com (Catz631(at)aol.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:31 AM  

    

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Subject: Re: Re: Engine roughnessEngine roughness  

  

  

    

   

    

Hugh,  

    

 Something else you might try is switching wires from one module to the other and see if the problem follows.  

    

                                   Dick Maddux  

    

                                   Milton Fl  

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