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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Hi All,  The 6 year time is closing for a huge group of us.



I wrote this for another website, but because this site has many LSA aircraft here and of many different types I thought this may be a good place to spread the word.

Okay here is the scoop right from Dereck at BRS.

First they are just coming into the repack times for SLSA. Yes they have been doing some from the Ultralight fliers and some from the GA world. These groups are of two different mind sets. Tell an Ultralight flier they need 6 weeks and he's good to go. Tell a GA pilot that and they grumble over a week. So the truth will lie in the middle. They are just now getting to the repack times for SLSA and we and they know that starting in 2011 some will start to trickle in. We both know that in 2012 that they will be swamped as they have never been before in their history. So time may run from 2-4 weeks to be realistic. 3 weeks may be a good bet. They will have hundreds to do in 2012 and in 2013. We talked about a way to help this process and make it as quick as possible. First don't wait until the last day of the month it is due to send it in. Plan out at least 2 months. Then call them and make a tentative appoint or time that yours will show up. this helps them plan for parts and personnel availability instead of getting caught off guard when they come to work Monday morning. It takes at least 3-4 days to repack. They have to open and inspect every inch of the chute. They then refold it and use a ram with tons of pressure to press it into a jig. Then it gets baked at 170F for 16 hrs. Then it cools for at least 4 + hrs. So if you have limited staff, get hit with a ton of chutes all at one time, get wiped out on parts and have a week of shipping from you and a week back to you, you will have 3-4 weeks of down time. We breached the idea of a chute swap, i.e. as yours come in then you may get someone elses and out the door it goes in a round robin. I personally didn't like the idea because I don't know how the other chute was taken care of. The other guy's may have sat on the ramp all its life and mine was in a nice dry climate hanger. So I don't think this may go over that well.

The cost will be around $1K give or take $100. Just remember some of this is new for everyone. The owner and BRS know the first LSA's are just now starting to come due. They said after things start rolling maybe they can get a better handle on the actual large scale influx of LSA chutes.



The key here is to plan ahead and don't procrastinate when you are getting close.

There are not only CT's out there, but other LSA to consider in this repack time table. 



The repack price and times is more geared towards the BRS 1350 other chute models may differ some

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

pilot(at)ip6.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

My Galaxy BRS expired at the end of 2009.



I had to take it apart, remove the rocket, and fire the trigger.

I shipped it regular ground to SportFlyingShop.com that is the US dealer.

They had it repackaged in the Czech Republic at the factory.

It came back in a metal cage to comply with hazardous shipment rules.

It costed $1,800, including shipping and it took 7 weeks.

The new BRS came with a nine years expiration.



-- Silvano



On 8/26/10 4:04 PM, Roger Lee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi All,  The 6 year time is closing for a huge group of us.



 I wrote this for another website, but because this site has many LSA aircraft here and of many different types I thought this may be a good place to spread the word.

 Okay here is the scoop right from Dereck at BRS.

 First they are just coming into the repack times for SLSA. Yes they have been doing some from the Ultralight fliers and some from the GA world. These groups are of two different mind sets. Tell an Ultralight flier they need 6 weeks and he's good to go. Tell a GA pilot that and they grumble over a week. So the truth will lie in the middle. They are just now getting to the repack times for SLSA and we and they know that starting in 2011 some will start to trickle in. We both know that in 2012 that they will be swamped as they have never been before in their history. So time may run from 2-4 weeks to be realistic. 3 weeks may be a good bet. They will have hundreds to do in 2012 and in 2013. We talked about a way to help this process and make it as quick as possible. First don't wait until the last day of the month it is due to send it in. Plan out at least 2 months. Then call them and make a tentative appoint or time that yours will show up. this helps them plan for parts and p!



   ersonnel availability instead of getting caught off guard when they come to work Monday morning. It takes at least 3-4 days to repack. They have to open and inspect every inch of the chute. They then refold it and use a ram with tons of pressure to press it into a jig. Then it gets baked at 170F for 16 hrs. Then it cools for at least 4 + hrs. So if you have limited staff, get hit with a ton of chutes all at one time, get wiped out on parts and have a week of shipping from you and a week back to you, you will have 3-4 weeks of down time. We breached the idea of a chute swap, i.e. as yours come in then you may get someone elses and out the door it goes in a round robin. I personally didn't like the idea because I don't know how the other chute was taken care of. The other guy's may have sat on the ramp all its life and mine was in a nice dry climate hanger. So I don't think this may go over that well.

 The cost will be around $1K give or take $100. Just remember some of this is new for everyone. The owner and BRS know the first LSA's are just now starting to come due. They said after things start rolling maybe they can get a better handle on the actual large scale influx of LSA chutes.



 The key here is to plan ahead and don't procrastinate when you are getting close.

 There are not only CT's out there, but other LSA to consider in this repack time table.



 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310234#310234

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

If there was ever an argument against these D*** A** things, this is it. Frankly, there are only two ways I would keep a BRS on my airplane, my wife wouldn't let me fly without it, or the minimum equipment list and the aircraft manual make it a requirement to keep the aircraft's airworthiness certificate. If either makes the BRS optional, let the silly thing rot and put that money and time into flight training. Just for the record, I do have one on my Kolb. It was on there when I bought the plane and I've left it on for weight and balance reasons. And while I'm doing mea culpas, I've also saved my life with a hand deploy 'chute when I was hang gliding. That being admitted to, the minute I get the new rudder built and the flutter issues are over, the BRS will be on eBay. Never forget, 2/3 of BRS is BS.

 Just my personal opinion and an excuse to rant......

Let the flames begin.......

Rick Girard



On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Silvano Gai <pilot(at)ip6.com (pilot(at)ip6.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Silvano Gai <pilot(at)ip6.com (pilot(at)ip6.com)>

  

  My Galaxy BRS expired at the end of 2009.

 

 I had to take it apart, remove the rocket, and fire the trigger.

 I shipped it regular ground to SportFlyingShop.com that is the US dealer.

 They had it repackaged in the Czech Republic at the factory.

 It came back in a metal cage to comply with hazardous shipment rules.

 It costed $1,800, including shipping and it took 7 weeks.

 The new BRS came with a nine years expiration.

 

 -- Silvano



 

 On 8/26/10 4:04 PM, Roger Lee wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   -->  RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee"<ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Hi All,  The 6 year time is closing for a huge group of us.

 

 I wrote this for another website, but because this site has many LSA aircraft here and of many different types I thought this may be a good place to spread the word.

 

 

 Okay here is the scoop right from Dereck at BRS.

 First they are just coming into the repack times for SLSA. Yes they have been doing some from the Ultralight fliers and some from the GA world. These groups are of two different mind sets. Tell an Ultralight flier they need 6 weeks and he's good to go. Tell a GA pilot that and they grumble over a week. So the truth will lie in the middle. They are just now getting to the repack times for SLSA and we and they know that starting in 2011 some will start to trickle in. We both know that in 2012 that they will be swamped as they have never been before in their history. So time may run from 2-4 weeks to be realistic. 3 weeks may be a good bet. They will have hundreds to do in 2012 and in 2013. We talked about a way to help this process and make it as quick as possible. First don't wait until the last day of the month it is due to send it in. Plan out at least 2 months. Then call them and make a tentative appoint or time that yours will show up. this helps them plan for parts and!

  	
  p!

  	  Quote: 	
		   

   ersonnel availability instead of getting caught off guard when they come to work Monday morning. It takes at least 3-4 days to repack. They have to open and inspect every inch of the chute. They then refold it and use a ram with tons of pressure to press it into a jig. Then it gets baked at 170F for 16 hrs. Then it cools for at least 4 + hrs. So if you have limited staff, get hit with a ton of chutes all at one time, get wiped out on parts and have a week of shipping from you and a week back to you, you will have 3-4 weeks of down time. We breached the idea of a chute swap, i.e. as yours come in then you may get someone elses and out the door it goes in a round robin. I personally didn't like the idea because I don't know how the other chute was taken care of. The other guy's may have sat on the ramp all its life and mine was in a nice dry climate hanger. So I don't think this may go over that well.

  The cost will be around $1K give or take $100. Just remember some of this is new for everyone. The owner and BRS know the first LSA's are just now starting to come due. They said after things start rolling maybe they can get a better handle on the actual large scale influx of LSA chutes.

  

 The key here is to plan ahead and don't procrastinate when you are getting close.

 There are not only CT's out there, but other LSA to consider in this repack time table.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310234#310234

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

 - G.K. Chesterton

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

ricklach

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Kernville, Calif.

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

OK Rick you made your point. How about some specifics as to your position. I have a BSR in my 701 and itâ€™s going to stay there mostly because it gives my wife GREAT comfort. I think it will work if deployed but Iâ€™m not so sure if the sh__ hits the fan I can get it deployed fast enough. I spend most of my time low and slow. Well so much for me, how about your reasons for your comments.



Rick

_________________
701Driver
N35 26.700, W118 16.743

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

For me personally the chute makes perfect sense as an insurance policy and is just part of doing business since I fly. Way too many people have died that may have been saved. With 250+ saves under BRS's chute and more saves with other chutes around the world it's just a good idea.

Here is the way I look at it since aircraft gets older and the skies more crowded.



What would you give if you were plummeting towards the ground? The answer at that point in time is "anything and everything". So why not just give them a lot less (the cost of a chute) right up front and save yourself all that anxiety and money.

Everyone talks a good game when we are upright and flying is good. Have it turn to crap and know you are going to die in the next few seconds changes all of us, especially since you could have easily prevented it.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, but just appeal to good logic sense we have chosen to fly and committed to be safe and come home to our family. 



Which is another point. What happens when you take a friend or family member into the ground and kill them too. What about all the trauma to the survivors they leave behind.

So my last parting comment is, "It's just money and that can be replaced".

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Roger et al, Took awhile to analyze and quantify the table of "saves" as assembled by BRS. I used their reason for deployment and when there seemed to be a crossover to another category I noted it.First the table is not complete. BRS lists 255 saves, yet the highest number of their numbering system is 240. BRS counts lives saved, yet their list is by incident. There are also gaps in the numbering. All that being said there are 149 separate incidents listed in 7 categories.

 



Loss of Control      (LOC)     53  w/ additional info 15

Structural Failure     (SF)     47                             5

Engine Out Terrain (EOT)     22                            2

 Unknown                   (?)     16                             3

Weather                 (WX)      8                             5

Poor Assembly        (PA)     2                              0

 Medical                   (RX)      1                             0

So an LOC incident may say tumble, yet so does a WX incident or an LOC can also say aerobatics and so will a SF.

 WX had the highest percentage of incidents with additional info and 50% of them listed tumbles. These were all hang gliders (if you've ever gone "over the falls" exiting a thermal you'll understand). All these had the primary reason as "violent air".

 Of the (?) reasons the three incidents with additional info were for in flight fire, midair collision and "struck an obstacle on approach".

Of the EOT's, the 2 with additional info were just engine out.

 Taking them all together, of the 149, roughly 50% were simply pilot error, poor judgement, or poor preflight inspection. I think this is fairly conservative, since it could be argued that ALL the Loss of Control incidents were due to pilot error. 

 Roger, All flying is unsafe. It can be mitigated with training, practice, knowledge, and exercising good judgement. I fail to understand how adding a device that can't be inspected during pre flight, has no circuit, sensor or warning lamp to let a pilot know it is armed and ready, and for which the pilot has no training whatsoever, makes flying safer. 

 Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary, that some pilots regard the BRS as the out for everything. An instructor I know even had a student tell him he didn't need to calculate fuel burn for a flight because if he ran out he'd pull the cord. My friend sent him packing with the advice to forget about learning to fly. Whether he did or not is unknown.

 And then there is the fact that once the 'chute is deployed the pilot has no control over anything. A test pilot for Cessna learned that one the hard way when he was spin testing the model 162, Sky Catcher. Winds on the ground were 20 gusting to 35 and when the airplane alighted it was dragged across the ground and the pilot was injured trying to get out of the aircraft.

 Just two weeks before that another Cessna test pilot, also spin testing the 162, attempted to deploy the BRS and it DID NOT FIRE. Fortunately he was also wearing a conventional parachute. He exited the aircraft and landed safely. 

 How many BRS's have done that? If one did, it certainly cancels out the idea that an airframe parachute is a panacea. 

Last, let me give you an example from my personal experience. I am a private pilot and the phrase, "First fly the airplane" has been drilled into my brain by every instructor I've ever trained with. Last year while departing a local fly in I had an engine out. I attempted to  restart the engine after checking the fuel valve and when I was unable to get the engine to fire, I resorted to training. Even though I had to fly upwind to get back to the runway ( I was at pattern altitude so this was not an "impossible turn" situation) I concentrated on maintaining best glide speed, on making sure "the spot that doesn't move" was on the runway and watched for traffic and obstructions. Even when the pilot of a twin took off downwind I took evasive action and flew parallel to the runway to clear him, then slipped back to the runway and completed the landing. At no time did I even think about the red handle even though I have it mounted right on the stick in plain sight. Throughout the incident, I heard Spence, my primary instructor throughout my training saying, "First fly the airplane" as plainly as if he were sitting next to me.

 In conclusion, The cheapest BRS costs over $2000. That can buy a lot of training. Studying about flying can be free if you use the local library and even if you have to buy the books, they're cheap. Sitting in the aircraft practicing emergency procedures is also free. Learning to say, "Not today", can be hard, but the discipline it brings is priceless. All these will make you a safer pilot. I am absolutely convinced a BRS does not.

 



Rick Girard

 



On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 For me personally the chute makes perfect sense as an insurance policy and is just part of doing business since I fly. Way too many people have died that may have been saved. With 250+ saves under BRS's chute and more saves with other chutes around the world it's just a good idea.

  Here is the way I look at it since aircraft gets older and the skies more crowded.

 

 What would you give if you were plummeting towards the ground? The answer at that point in time is "anything and everything". So why not just give them a lot less (the cost of a chute) right up front and save yourself all that anxiety and money.

  Everyone talks a good game when we are upright and flying is good. Have it turn to crap and know you are going to die in the next few seconds changes all of us, especially since you could have easily prevented it.

 

 

 I am not trying to bash anyone here, but just appeal to good logic sense we have chosen to fly and committed to be safe and come home to our family.

 

 Which is another point. What happens when you take a friend or family member into the ground and kill them too. What about all the trauma to the survivors they leave behind.

 

 

 So my last parting comment is, "It's just money and that can be replaced".

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310290#310290

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

I agree with you Richard,

  

 When I bought my Aventura II in 2003, it had a BRS 1200  on it. I never felt comfortable with it on my plane. It's like you said, you  can't preflight it so you really don't know if it will work. Then you have to be  prepared as to when you would pull it. My decision was to only pull if I lost  control of the plane or if I was over the trees with an engine out, at the last  minute so as to slow the decent through the trees. 

  

 When 10 year mark came due on the rocket, I sold it on  barnstormers. The guy that bought it was going to put it on a kolb as is, out of  date. I am glad it is off my plane and I feel that I am a more cautious and  safer pilot. I find myself now always looking for that emergency landing  spot (something that I should have been doing anyway)

  

  When you have a parachute on your plane I have to  admit that in the back of your mind you think "well if I get in real trouble, I  can always pull the chute". 

  

 My plane weighs 30 pounds less and I lost about a knot  of drag. 

  

  

  

  



  From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 4:18 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Re: BRS chute repack time  table

 



Roger et al, Took awhile to analyze and quantify the table of  "saves" as assembled by BRS. I used their reason for deployment and when there  seemed to be a crossover to another category I noted it.  First the table is not complete. BRS lists 255 saves, yet the highest  number of their numbering system is 240. BRS counts lives saved, yet their list  is by incident. There are also gaps in the numbering. All that being said there  are 149 separate incidents listed in 7 categories.

 



 Loss of Control      (LOC)     53  w/  additional info 15

 Structural Failure     (SF)     47                               5

 Engine Out Terrain (EOT)     22                             2

 Unknown                   (?)      16                              3

 Weather                 (WX)       8                              5

 Poor Assembly        (PA)     2                                0

 Medical                   (RX)       1                              0

 



 So an LOC incident may say tumble, yet so does a WX incident or an LOC can  also say aerobatics and so will a SF.

 WX had the highest percentage of incidents with additional info and 50% of  them listed tumbles. These were all hang gliders (if you've ever gone "over the  falls" exiting a thermal you'll understand). All these had the primary reason as  "violent air".

 Of the (?) reasons the three incidents with additional info were for in  flight fire, midair collision and "struck an obstacle on approach".

 Of the EOT's, the 2 with additional info were just engine out.

 Taking them all together, of the 149, roughly 50% were simply pilot error,  poor judgement, or poor preflight inspection. I think this is fairly  conservative, since it could be argued that ALL the Loss of Control incidents  were due to pilot error. 

 Roger, All flying is unsafe. It can be mitigated with training, practice,  knowledge, and exercising good judgement. I fail to understand how adding a  device that can't be inspected during pre flight, has no circuit, sensor or  warning lamp to let a pilot know it is armed and ready, and for which the pilot  has no training whatsoever, makes flying safer. 

 Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary, that some pilots regard the BRS  as the out for everything. An instructor I know even had a student tell him he  didn't need to calculate fuel burn for a flight because if he ran out he'd pull  the cord. My friend sent him packing with the advice to forget about learning to  fly. Whether he did or not is unknown.

 And then there is the fact that once the 'chute is deployed the pilot has  no control over anything. A test pilot for Cessna learned that one the hard way  when he was spin testing the model 162, Sky Catcher. Winds on the ground were 20  gusting to 35 and when the airplane alighted it was dragged across the ground  and the pilot was injured trying to get out of the aircraft.

 Just two weeks before that another Cessna test pilot, also spin testing the  162, attempted to deploy the BRS and it DID NOT FIRE. Fortunately he was also  wearing a conventional parachute. He exited the aircraft and landed  safely. 

 How many BRS's have done that? If one did, it certainly cancels out the  idea that an airframe parachute is a panacea. 

 Last, let me give you an example from my personal experience. I am a  private pilot and the phrase, "First fly the airplane" has been drilled into my  brain by every instructor I've ever trained with. Last year while departing a  local fly in I had an engine out. I attempted to  restart the engine after  checking the fuel valve and when I was unable to get the engine to fire, I  resorted to training. Even though I had to fly upwind to get back to the runway  ( I was at pattern altitude so this was not an "impossible turn" situation) I  concentrated on maintaining best glide speed, on making sure "the spot that  doesn't move" was on the runway and watched for traffic and obstructions. Even  when the pilot of a twin took off downwind I took evasive action and flew  parallel to the runway to clear him, then slipped back to the runway and  completed the landing. At no time did I even think about the red handle even  though I have it mounted right on the stick in plain sight. Throughout the  incident, I heard Spence, my primary instructor throughout my training saying,  "First fly the airplane" as plainly as if he were sitting next to me.

 In conclusion, The cheapest BRS costs over $2000. That can buy a lot of  training. Studying about flying can be free if you use the local library and  even if you have to buy the books, they're cheap. Sitting in the aircraft  practicing emergency procedures is also free. Learning to say, "Not today", can  be hard, but the discipline it brings is priceless. All these will make you a  safer pilot. I am absolutely convinced a BRS does not.

 



 Rick Girard

 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee"    <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>



For me    personally the chute makes perfect sense as an insurance policy and is just    part of doing business since I fly. Way too many people have died that may    have been saved. With 250+ saves under BRS's chute and more saves with other    chutes around the world it's just a good idea.

Here is the way I look at it    since aircraft gets older and the skies more crowded.



What would you    give if you were plummeting towards the ground? The answer at that point in    time is "anything and everything". So why not just give them a lot less (the    cost of a chute) right up front and save yourself all that anxiety and    money.

Everyone talks a good game when we are upright and flying is good.    Have it turn to crap and know you are going to die in the next few seconds    changes all of us, especially since you could have easily prevented    it.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, but just appeal to good    logic sense we have chosen to fly and committed to be safe and come home to    our family.



Which is another point. What happens when you take a friend    or family member into the ground and kill them too. What about all the trauma    to the survivors they leave behind.

So my last parting comment is,    "It's just money and that can be replaced".



--------

Roger    Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax    Repair Center

520-574-1080





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310290#310290



===========

-List"    target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

===========

http://forums.matronics.com

===========

le,    List    Admin.

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========



	


-- 

 Zulu Delta

 Kolb Mk IIIC

 582 Gray head

 4.00 C gearbox

 3 blade WD

 Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



 It is not  bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine  how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K.  Chesterton

 



[quote]



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dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:56 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Roger, Well said. I don't have a BRS on my plane but I am looking at options of how I might install it on a Kitfox IV. My plane has a stall speed of just under 40 mph which is awesome and in most engine out situations...no shute needed. I fly in and out of airports that have alot of student pilots...very congested. It only takes one wrong move on the part of one pilot and I don't have a wing or rudder. There isn't one pilot here that wouldn't welcome that rip-chord to yank on at that moment. 

Dan B

 Mesa, AZ

 

   From: Matt Tucciarone <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 4:03:40 AM

Subject: Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table



 I agree with you Richard,

  

 When I bought my Aventura II in 2003, it had a BRS 1200 on it. I never felt comfortable with it on my plane. It's like you said, you can't preflight it so you really don't know if it will work. Then you have to be prepared as to when you would pull it. My decision was to only pull if I lost control of the plane or if I was over the trees with an engine out, at the last minute so as to slow the decent through the trees. 

  

 When 10 year mark came due on the rocket, I sold it on barnstormers. The guy that bought it was going to put it on a kolb as is, out of date. I am glad it is off my plane and I feel that I am a more cautious and safer pilot. I find myself now always looking for that emergency landing spot (something that I should have been doing anyway)

  

  When you have a parachute on your plane I have to admit that in the back of your mind you think "well if I get in real trouble, I can always pull the chute". 

  

 My plane weighs 30 pounds less and I lost about a knot of drag. 

  

  

  

  



  From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 4:18 AM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: BRS chute repack time table

 



Roger et al, Took awhile to analyze and quantify the table of "saves" as assembled by BRS. I used their reason for deployment and when there seemed to be a crossover to another category I noted it.  First the table is not complete. BRS lists 255 saves, yet the highest number of their numbering system is 240. BRS counts lives saved, yet their list is by incident. There are also gaps in the numbering. All that being said there are 149 separate incidents listed in 7 categories.

 



 Loss of Control      (LOC)     53  w/ additional info 15

 Structural Failure     (SF)     47                             5

 Engine Out Terrain (EOT)     22                            2

 Unknown                   (?)     16                             3

 Weather                 (WX)      8                             5

 Poor Assembly        (PA)     2                              0

 Medical                   (RX)      1                             0

 



 So an LOC incident may say tumble, yet so does a WX incident or an LOC can also say aerobatics and so will a SF.

 WX had the highest percentage of incidents with additional info and 50% of them listed tumbles. These were all hang gliders (if you've ever gone "over the falls" exiting a thermal you'll understand). All these had the primary reason as "violent air".

 Of the (?) reasons the three incidents with additional info were for in flight fire, midair collision and "struck an obstacle on approach".

 Of the EOT's, the 2 with additional info were just engine out.

 Taking them all together, of the 149, roughly 50% were simply pilot error, poor judgement, or poor preflight inspection. I think this is fairly conservative, since it could be argued that ALL the Loss of Control incidents were due to pilot error. 

 Roger, All flying is unsafe. It can be mitigated with training, practice, knowledge, and exercising good judgement. I fail to understand how adding a device that can't be inspected during pre flight, has no circuit, sensor or warning lamp to let a pilot know it is armed and ready, and for which the pilot has no training whatsoever, makes flying safer. 

 Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary, that some pilots regard the BRS as the out for everything. An instructor I know even had a student tell him he didn't need to calculate fuel burn for a flight because if he ran out he'd pull the cord. My friend sent him packing with the advice to forget about learning to fly. Whether he did or not is unknown.

 And then there is the fact that once the 'chute is deployed the pilot has no control over anything. A test pilot for Cessna learned that one the hard way when he was spin testing the model 162, Sky Catcher. Winds on the ground were 20 gusting to 35 and when the airplane alighted it was dragged across the ground and the pilot was injured trying to get out of the aircraft.

 Just two weeks before that another Cessna test pilot, also spin testing the 162, attempted to deploy the BRS and it DID NOT FIRE. Fortunately he was also wearing a conventional parachute. He exited the aircraft and landed safely. 

 How many BRS's have done that? If one did, it certainly cancels out the idea that an airframe parachute is a panacea. 

 Last, let me give you an example from my personal experience. I am a private pilot and the phrase, "First fly the airplane" has been drilled into my brain by every instructor I've ever trained with. Last year while departing a local fly in I had an engine out. I attempted to  restart the engine after checking the fuel valve and when I was unable to get the engine to fire, I resorted to training. Even though I had to fly upwind to get back to the runway ( I was at pattern altitude so this was not an "impossible turn" situation) I concentrated on maintaining best glide speed, on making sure "the spot that doesn't move" was on the runway and watched for traffic and obstructions. Even when the pilot of a twin took off downwind I took evasive action and flew parallel to the runway to clear him, then slipped back to the runway and completed the landing. At no time did I even think about the red handle even though I have it mounted right on the stick  in plain sight. Throughout the incident, I heard Spence, my primary instructor throughout my training saying, "First fly the airplane" as plainly as if he were sitting next to me.

 In conclusion, The cheapest BRS costs over $2000. That can buy a lot of training. Studying about flying can be free if you use the local library and even if you have to buy the books, they're cheap. Sitting in the aircraft practicing emergency procedures is also free. Learning to say, "Not today", can be hard, but the discipline it brings is priceless. All these will make you a safer pilot. I am absolutely convinced a BRS does not.

 



 Rick Girard

 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>



For me personally the chute makes perfect sense as an insurance policy and is just part of doing business since I fly. Way too many people have died that may have been saved. With 250+ saves under BRS's chute and more saves with other chutes around the world it's just a good idea.

Here is the way I look at it since aircraft gets older and the skies more crowded.



What would you give if you were plummeting towards the ground? The answer at that point in time is "anything and everything". So why not just give them a lot less (the cost of a chute) right up front and save yourself all that anxiety and money.

Everyone talks a good game when we  are upright and flying is good. Have it turn to crap and know you are going to die in the next few seconds changes all of us, especially since you could have easily prevented it.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, but just appeal to good logic sense we have chosen to fly and committed to be safe and come home to our family.



Which is another point. What happens when you take a friend or family member into the ground and kill them too. What about all the trauma to the survivors they leave behind.

So my last parting comment is, "It's just money and that can be replaced".



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Repair Center

520-574-1080





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310290#310290



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-- 

 Zulu Delta

 Kolb Mk IIIC

 582 Gray head

 4.00 C gearbox

 3 blade WD

 Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



 It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton

 



[quote]


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[b][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

Ah, the chute thread - this is one of my favorites . So I'll toss in my viewpoint.



I'm sympathetic to both sides, but I think the cons of the chute end up outweighing the potential benefits so I choose to fly without one. To me, the cons are:



- The worst and most dangerous problem with the chute is its use can't be practiced. As we all know, practice is the life-blood of emergency procedures because when it hits the fan, training is what will save your life. When you're thinking it through in an emergency, it tends to be, ok, let's assess the situation, hmm, I think I still have elevator control, but seems like I can still.... ok, I got the chute... should I or shouldn't I.... kablooey! You get the picture... if you can't _practice_ it, it is ultimately of very little utility in an emergency situation and can actually be hazardous. 



- There's not really any specific or clear protocol for when you should fire the chute and when you shouldn't, nor can you actually go up and simulate those eventualities. Everything between a rough engine over hostile terrain and the wings snapping off is pretty much a gray area. I personally know of a couple of near-misses that resulted from an improper firing of a chute even tho the aircraft was still intact and under control and engine was running. The inability to train in the chute's use and a good protocol was the direct culprit (in one case, the pilot hit a bad spot of turbulence on final but the plane, a quicksilver 2-place, was still intact. Fortunately, he survived but he and his passenger were injured and plane was totalled - he couldn't say if he could have flown the plane to a landing or not, but admitted that he probably could have gone around).



- The case where it would _clearly_ be a good option (complete loss of control or enough loss to not be able to fly/land the plane) is also the _rarest_ situation for us. Far and away, our planes stay together and are still flyable in most emergency situations. True it can happen, but it's also hard to justify the expense, weight and bulk to prepare for so unlikely an event.



- the chute itself is a potential hazard. Imagine if an in-flight fire happens to reach the rocket - you thought the situation was bad before...? Also there's always a slight chance of accidental firing, which would really ruin your day when it wasn't already ruined by something else.



- extra weight and cost. The cost is the main thing here, money that'd be far better spent keeping the plane up, engine well maintained etc. 



Anyway, those are the basic cons of the chute as I see them. I know about the pros which have already been listed and accept them, but I still don't quite see them as outweighing the cons....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

George Myers

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: San Marcos, Texas

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:44 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

I personally do not use a BRS having removed them from both of my ELSA's, BUT I was taking lessons at Boerne Stage Airfield 5C1 in Boerne TX in july 2009 in a Czech built Lambada Motor Glider LSA. Nice plane With a rotax 912. In July of 2009 a week before I was scheduled to complete my check ride (don't ask) the tail fell off of it at 3000 ft. in normal operations. The pilot pulled the BRS and the plane came down in some pretty rough country but he and a passanger survived. Needless to say my instructor, Dave White, will not instruct in a plane without one now. I will be glad to supply contacts to the people involved off list if desired.   

   

George E. Myers Jr.  

San Marcos, TX 78666  

512-353-4860  

Rans S-12 582 3 blade warp  

   

   

   

   

       

 	  Quote: 	
		  Roger, Well said. I don't have a BRS on my plane but I am looking at options of how I might install it on a Kitfox IV. My plane has a stall speed of just >under 40 mph which is awesome and in most engine out situations...no shute needed. I fly in and out of airports that have alot of student pilots...very >congested. It only takes one wrong move on the part of one pilot and I don't have a wing or rudder. There isn't one pilot here that wouldn't welcome that >rip-chord to yank on at that moment. 

 >Dan B  
	


    

 	  Quote: 	
		  Mesa, AZ  

  
	


  

       [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

Hi All,



Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator. The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable goes taught. You have to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely to the ground. What about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.

I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that it can't hurt us.

Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from an idiot not using his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.

As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of  times I have heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought. My job for 30 years was safety and it still is, it was fixing other peoples screw ups and putting them back together.



Ricklach has the video link on his post. Bet this guy was happy for a chute!



I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives when I fall off.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

This is a Remos dealer 18 miles north of me. He hadn't sold one yet.

This is bad news.

2 injured in plane crash at Marana airport 

Associated Press



Posted on August 28, 2010 at 11:31 PM

MARANA, Ariz. (AP) â€” Officials say two people suffered serious injuries Saturday morning after the plane they were flying in crashed at the Marana Northwest Regional Airport.



Capt. Adam Goldberg of the Northwest Fire/Rescue District says the 46-year-old flight instructor who was flying the single-engine Remos airplane suffered life-threatening injuries.



A 16-year-old girl who was onboard as an introductory flight for possible flying lessons also suffered serious injuries.



Goldberg says witnesses saw the plane take off, take a hard right, circle around, miss the runway and land in a field next to the runway.



Federal Aviation Administration Kathleen Bergen says the federal agency was investigating the crash.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an emergency happens. This is the same side of the fence that has the people who buy lotto tickets as their personal retirement plan. Unfortunately we don't have any data on those accidents you quote. 

Did the Zenith pilot do a poor preflight? Did the builder of the airplane substitute sub standard material into his airplane? Was it overloaded. Was it one of the 601's that were built so piss poor by the manufacturer, AMD, that the FAA had to step in? I know of one Zenith crash that killed the mother and father of the owner. He was repeatedly warned of the problems with his aircraft and chose to ignore them. Yes, it's a horrible price to pay, but what does anyone expect when deliberate stupidity takes the pilot seat?

 I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?

 Your near miss experience. What did you do about it? Confront the pilot? Notify the FAA? Anything but grumble?

In the end all we can do is disagree. Perhaps I'm just a relic. A relic of a different time when professionalism, personal responsibility, and training were the requirements for aviation, not relying on a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to my personal safety.

 



Rick Girard



On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Hi All,

 

 Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator. The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable goes taught. You have to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely to the ground. W!

   hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.

 I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that it can't hurt us.

  Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from an idiot not using his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.

  As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of  times I have heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.

  

 I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives when I fall off.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 

 ngines-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

 - G.K. Chesterton

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Richard,

 You call yourself a relic...that is not quite the word I had in mind. We all have our opinions and there is no reason to slam folks for expressing them. Roger has earned the respect of many on this list as a professional...learn what that means and act accordingly.

 Dan 

 Mesa



 

   From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, August 29, 2010 7:10:22 AM

Subject: Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table



Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an emergency happens. This is the same side of the fence that has the people who buy lotto tickets as their personal retirement plan.  Unfortunately we don't have any data on those accidents you quote. 

 Did the Zenith pilot do a poor preflight? Did the builder of the airplane substitute sub standard material into his airplane? Was it overloaded. Was it one of the 601's that were built so piss poor by the manufacturer, AMD, that the FAA had to step in? I know of one Zenith crash that killed the mother and father of the owner. He was repeatedly warned of the problems with his aircraft and chose to ignore them. Yes, it's a horrible price to pay, but what does anyone expect when deliberate stupidity takes the pilot seat?

 I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?

 Your near miss experience. What did you do about it? Confront the pilot? Notify the FAA? Anything but grumble?

 In the end all we can do is disagree. Perhaps I'm just a relic. A relic of a different time when professionalism, personal responsibility, and training were the requirements for aviation, not relying on a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to my personal safety.

 



 Rick Girard



 On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>



Hi All,



Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator. The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable goes taught. You have  to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely to the ground. W!

 hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.

I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that it can't hurt us.

Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from an idiot not using  his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.

As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of  times I have heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.



I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives when I fall off.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Repair Center

520-574-1080

 



Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452



===========



ngines-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

===========

http://forums.matronics.com

===========

le, List Admin.

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========



	




-- 

 Zulu Delta

 Kolb Mk IIIC

 582 Gray head

 4.00 C gearbox

 3 blade WD

 Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



 It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton

 

[quote]http://www.matronics="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://for=========


[/b][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

 	  rickofudall wrote: 	
		  Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an emergency happens. ....



 I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?

	




Well I do want to defend Roger on this one point, because it's a good one. Aerobatic flight is a much different regime than what we normally fly in - here the chances of an in-flight breakup or other LOC really _is_ significantly higher. So in this case, a BRS is I think justifiable. 



I also saw the video of the Rans breakup - it was an S9 I believe, but I was unaware the S9 was strong enough to do the wild aerobatics the pilot was actually doing. Well, obviously it wasn't, was it...... 



But even so, I'd still have to cross over the line and agree with the Pro BRS side when it comes to aerobatics in an experimental airplane - here a chute is arguably a good idea as was made clear in the video.



I still stand by my comments about training and practice, but I think Roger's points are still well taken here. I have to admit he's right that if the fire is that bad, yes, you're pretty well screwed at that point anyway 



As I said, I still believe the cons outweigh the pros, but that doesn't mean the pros aren't actually pros. I think they are and in particular for aerobatics like I said....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

Hi All,



I take no offense to different opinions because that is what makes the world turn and work as we know and we are all allowed to make our own choices. That's cool with me.

So guys no harm no foul with me, I'm good. 

I guess my point boils down to we are all human and we all make mistakes. I think we have all done something in our lives that didn't work quite as planned, or we missed seeing something right in front of us. So as long as we are that human factor, and God knows I have missed things, then I just would like a good backup plan in the air sense you can't pull over to the curb. Once in a while landing normally on a road or field isn't an option we are given. We all make mistakes, this just gives us the second chance to play again and it gives my family and friends the chance not to have to suffer through a funeral.



So all is good here.



No matter how well anyone plans, something can and does happen. No one plans on going out to die today, but look at all the crashes in the US and World every year. [u]Bad things happen to good diligent people no matter how perfect and careful you are and what happens when the other guy causes the problem and you did everything right. You can be dead right.



Why wear a seatbelt in a car, why wear a helmet on a motorcycle, why wear a backup chute when sky diving, what about all the sports that have backups, why do we do anything with a backup plan because things happen out of our control.



For me personally I'm a better safe than sorry type. Have a backup plan and pray you never have to use it. I spent 30 years helping all those who didn't plan. All those lives both victim and family ruined.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Last edited by Roger Lee on Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:28 am; edited 3 times in total

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:09 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Lucien, FAR 91.307



(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute,

no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember)

may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—



(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or



(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.



(e) For the purposes of this section, *approved parachute *means—



(1) A parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a technical

standard order (C–23 series); or



(2) A personnel-carrying military parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or AN

drawing number, an AAF order number, or any other military designation or

specification number.



NO BRS meets these requirements, NONE.



Rick

On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>

 rickofudall wrote:

 > Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that

 wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting

 their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an

 emergency happens. ....

 >

 >  I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking

 stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The

 original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own

 site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for

 aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only

 +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic

 category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?

 >

 Well I do want to defend Roger on this one point, because it's a good one

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Roger, I sometimes become to strident in my opinions. As I told Dan, I respect your knowledge of things mechanical and Rotax. We just disagree about the value of a BRS.Thanks for all you contribute here and the chance to have this discussion. 

 If I said anything that was personally disparaging of you, it was without intent and I offer my apology.

Rick



On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 Hi All,

 

 I take no offense to different opinions because that is what makes the world turn and work as we know and we are all allowed to make our own choices. That's cool with me.

 So guys no harm no foul with me, I'm good.

 I guess my point boils down to we are all human and we all make mistakes. I think we have all done something in our lives that didn't work quite as planned or we missed seeing something right in front of us. So as long as we are that human factor and God knows I have missed things then I just would like a good back up plan in the air sense you can't pull over to the curb and once in a while landing normally on a road or field isn't an option we are given. We all make mistakes, this just gives us the second chance to play again and it gives my family and friends the chance not to have to suffer through a funeral.

  

 So all is good here.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310500#310500

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 



  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: BRS chute repack time table

Dan, You have put your finger exactly on the problem as I see it. Roger is a great guy, I value his knowledge of things mechanical and Rotax. In that I do not believe we have a difference. I just don't believe that a BRS is good for anything other than getting past your wife's/husband's/SO's objections to flying. Beyond that they are just an expensive lump and I think the money is better spent on training and knowledge. 



Rick



On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com (dan(at)azshowersolutions.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard,

 You call yourself a relic...that is not quite the word I had in mind. We all have our opinions and there is no reason to slam folks for expressing them. Roger has earned the respect of many on this list as a professional..learn what that means and act accordingly.

  Dan 

 Mesa



 

   From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)

 

Sent: Sun, August 29, 2010 7:10:22 AM

Subject: Re: Re: BRS chute repack time table



 

Roger, So let's get this straight. You fall on the side of the fence that wants to be free to be stupid, careless and lazy when it comes to warranting their safety and rely upon a magic bullet to save their butt when an emergency happens. This is the same side of the fence that has the people who buy lotto tickets as their personal retirement plan.  Unfortunately we don't have any data on those accidents you quote. 

 Did the Zenith pilot do a poor preflight? Did the builder of the airplane substitute sub standard material into his airplane? Was it overloaded. Was it one of the 601's that were built so piss poor by the manufacturer, AMD, that the FAA had to step in? I know of one Zenith crash that killed the mother and father of the owner. He was repeatedly warned of the problems with his aircraft and chose to ignore them. Yes, it's a horrible price to pay, but what does anyone expect when deliberate stupidity takes the pilot seat?

  I watched the video of the wing failure in Argentina. Pretty freaking stupid to do inverted maneuvers in a strut braced wing aircraft. The original report on that failure said it was a Rans aircraft. From Rans own site, they only make one aircraft that they advertise as being used for aerobatics, the S 9 "Chaos". The load limit rating of that aircraft is only +6 / -4. Yes, this meets the requirements of FAR 23.337 for the acrobatic category ( +6, -3) but only if it is built per the factory. Was it?

  Your near miss experience. What did you do about it? Confront the pilot? Notify the FAA? Anything but grumble?

 In the end all we can do is disagree. Perhaps I'm just a relic. A relic of a different time when professionalism, personal responsibility, and training were the requirements for aviation, not relying on a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to my personal safety.

  



 Rick Girard



 On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>

 



Hi All,



Any equipment is only as useful, practical and and safe as the operator. The rockets don't explode in a fire, they are a solid propellant and if it's that bad a fire your toast any way so that isn't a real consideration. When to use it isn't about practice, but education on when and how to use it. You can practice your muscle memory on grabbing the handle in case of a true emergency. Plus nothing else to practice sense you have nothing to do, but float to the ground. No accidental firings since it takes almost 35 lbs. of pull to activate it. Plus the handle can come out of the socket about an inch before the cable goes taught. You have  to tell the families of the Zenith (6) aircraft that had wing failure that they weren't a good idea or the other saves they have actually had around the world. I bet everyone of those Zenith pilots were thinking nothing wrong with my plane. Tell it to the pilot just recently at that air show that lost a wing and floated safely to the ground. W!

  hat about the other mornon that runs into you while you are minding you own business? Or after the mechanic forgets to install something. Part failure in experimental's is a big cause of failures.

I guess my whole point is what ever the cause of a failure may not be by your hand or it may be because you were complacent or you just overlooked something. What we don't know can hurt us, regardless of the old saying that it can't hurt us.

 Your right that you'll never need it, until that one time and no one anywhere can predict that. I came within 50' of a midair two years ago from an idiot not using  his radio and trying to cut in front of two planes already in the pattern. To me there are no cons only pros and that view point comes from research and education and no myths, but facts.

As a retired fireman I can't tell you how many thousands of  times I have heard, "Well that has never happened to me before". Wish I had a dollar for each time I heard that statement and every time they said it they dialed 911. Being a victim is easy, keeping from being one takes some fore thought.

 

I know there are two sides of the fence I just want to be on the side that lives when I fall off.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Repair Center

 520-574-1080

 



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310452#310452



 



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="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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  	  Quote: 	
		  	




-- 

 Zulu Delta

 Kolb Mk IIIC

 582 Gray head

 4.00 C gearbox

 3 blade WD

 Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



 It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://for=========



	


  	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: BRS chute repack time table

Hi Rick and everyone,



Nothing personal here. I'm good if you are. I don't mind debates and discussions at all. We all learn from constructive discussions and I respect anyones decision on how they do things. We all get to make our own choices and that's what America is about. The original post was just an update for those who have chutes. Just trying to be helpful and pass on info that I got from BRS.



So off the our next discussion.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

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