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Oil, again

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wild.blue(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: Oil, again

I found the Precision article to be very interesting, also Walt's post.  One

thing not mentioned that I have read in text books is that the master rod

bearing in some engines is a silver compound that additives in AD oils may

attack.  HSAT I have used Phillips 25-60 for many years in HS-6's, M-14's,

R-985's etc with no obvious ill effects.  OTOH, I've never run one out, or

performed an overhaul, so can't make any comments on effects on the internal

workin's based on actual eyeball inspection.  Since that is Precision's

stock in trade I'd be very inclined to defer to their greater expertise, to

say nothing of P&W's.  As Brian Lloyd used to say, YMMV. 



 



Also:  does anyone out there use a pre-oiler?  Mfrs?



                



Jerry Painter



 



Wild Blue Aviation 



425-876-0865



JP(at)FlyWBA.com



www.FlyWBA.com



 



Flight Training



Aircraft Restoration and Maintenance 



Pilot Supplies



 



Hangar 28



Arlington Municipal Airport



18228 59th Dr. NE



Arlington, WA 98223



PS Apparently there is some problem with my email client not sending plain

text, so, I'm trying again...

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: Oil, again

My experience is about the same as Jerry's.  I have no direct knowledge of 

25W60 performance from an overhaul perspective.  I did discuss it years ago 

with the folks at Aero Engines relative to the 985 and 1340.  As I recall 

they were quite happy with it.  Covington also appears to be as well since 

they regularly recommend 25W60 in their newsletters.

However, I too am very inclined to defer to Precision's expertise.  They 

have been overhauling the big radials for as long as I can remember and that 

is one hell of a long time.

The note I mentioned earlier in P&W SB #1183 is as follows "Grade 1120 is 

preferred in all engines using dispersant additive type oils except in very 

cold climates where grade 1100 may provide easier starting."



1120=120=60SAE



Walt

Walt

---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: Oil, again

Precision makes no mention of the radial-specific 25-60 oil, just the  

oils for flat engines. I see no issue here.

On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:29 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:



[quote] 



 My experience is about the same as Jerry's.  I have no direct  

 knowledge of 25W60 performance from an overhaul perspective.  I did  

 discuss it years ago with the folks at Aero Engines relative to the  

 985 and 1340.  As I recall they were quite happy with it.  Covington  

 also appears to be as well since they regularly recommend 25W60 in  

 their newsletters.

 However, I too am very inclined to defer to Precision's expertise.   

 They have been overhauling the big radials for as long as I can  

 remember and that is one hell of a long time.

 The note I mentioned earlier in P&W SB #1183 is as follows "Grade  

 1120 is preferred in all engines using dispersant additive type oils  

 except in very cold climates where grade 1100 may provide easier  

 starting."



 1120=120=60SAE



 Walt

 Walt

 ---

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:37 am Post subject: oil, again

In regards to the silver plating on the master rod journal, I believe there is a lead coating that protects the silver. It is this lead coating that is attacked by lead scavenging compounds in some aviation "flat engine" oils that does the damage. AD oils designed for radials do not include same.



In automotive oils, compounds include zinc and sulphur additives meant to reduce wear. These additives can erode the lead exposing the silver to acids. One day, the whole mess just seizes up and stops turning. This has happened to large radials, removed from long-term storage and filled up with modern "racing" oils. I remember an Oshkosh seminar where X-rays of the crank journal where an important part of the OH process.



Be careful what you dump into the oil.



Craig Payne

Francois Davel

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 24

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Oil, again

Hi there Guys and Gals



I am just a simple sprinkler salesman, so need to some advice in the simplest terms.....



I have just recovered from a Hydraulic lock and the the process have honed the cylinders and have new rings.



So now this opens up the debate of Straight versus Ashless. Both of which are very difficult to get in SAE60 that is S120 and AD120



OR can we use multi grade oils?



I need to bed the  rings and would hate to do something that would stop this?



Any thoughts advice?



Thanks in anticipation



Francois

_________________
Round Engines RULE!

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: Oil, again

I use the Phillips 25-60 made for radial engines with success.

On Aug 30, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Francois Davel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fdavel(at)senninger.com>



 Hi there Guys and Gals



 I am just a simple sprinkler salesman, so need to some advice in the  

 simplest terms.....



 I have just recovered from a Hydraulic lock and the the process have  

 honed the cylinders and have new rings.



 So now this opens up the debate of Straight versus Ashless. Both of  

 which are very difficult to get in SAE60 that is S120 and AD120



 OR can we use multi grade oils?



 I need to bed the  rings and would hate to do something that would  

 stop this?



 Any thoughts advice?



 Thanks in anticipation



 Francois



 --------

 Round Engines RULE!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310715#310715

Francois Davel

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 24

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Oil, again

Can I ask the question,  straight or ashless???



When bedding the rings is it really necessary for straight oil?



I look forward to some sage advice....



Cheers



Francois

_________________
Round Engines RULE!

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: Oil, again

Francois:



The Phillips 25-60 is supposed to be fine for break-in. I was under  

the impression that it was mineral or "mineral based", and that was  

why it was OK for that, but someone from the Yak-LIst with several  

extra chemistry-related initials after his name said that the W100  

(AD) is also mineral based, so the terminology is confusing (to me).  

However, here's what I'm pretty sure about:



Phillips 25-60 (for radial engines) is good for break-in and post  

break-in operation.



Aeroshell 80, 100 or 120 (NOT AD) is also recommended for break-in  

(say, 50 hours), after which time you switch to W80, W100 or W120 (AD).



I know of people who have used the non-AD mineral oil on the Pratt  

R-1340 for its entire service life, but I have never heard of that  

with an M-14P.



-Eric

On Sep 2, 2010, at 2:41 AM, Francois Davel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fdavel(at)senninger.com>



 Can I ask the question,  straight or ashless???



 When bedding the rings is it really necessary for straight oil?



 I look forward to some sage advice....



 Cheers



 Francois



 --------

 Round Engines RULE!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311037#311037

Francois Davel

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 24

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Oil, again

Thanks Eric



Here in South Africa, we do not get the Phillips Brand.



There is the Mobil Multigrade 20W 50, that comes from he USA.



Then we get the mono grades SAE 50 and 60



I am using Straight 120 (SAE 60) right now and have enough for a baout 10 hours.....after which I will have to change to Straight 100 ( SAE 100)



Is this okay? what thoughts



Cheers



Francois

_________________
Round Engines RULE!

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: Oil, again

In France we would love to have the Philips and it could be possible..unfortunately the price would be too high to use in a Yak....

So we are using the Aeroshell W100 (dispersive) summer and winter.



Regards



  Didier



2010/9/4 Francois Davel <fdavel(at)senninger.com (fdavel(at)senninger.com)>

 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Yak-List message posted by: "Francois Davel" <fdavel(at)senninger.com (fdavel(at)senninger.com)>

 

 Thanks Eric

 

 Here in South Africa, we do not get the Phillips Brand.

 

 There is the Mobil Multigrade 20W 50, that comes from he USA.

 

 Then we get the mono grades SAE 50 and 60

 

 I am using Straight 120 (SAE 60) right now and have enough for a baout 10 hours.....after which I will have to change to Straight 100 ( SAE 100)

 

 Is this okay? what thoughts

 

 Cheers

 

 Francois

 

 --------

 Round Engines RULE!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311376#311376

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

Didier BLOUZARD

didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com)

0624243672

  [quote][b]

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: Oil, again

Francois:



DO NOT use the multi-grade oils intended for flat engines. There is  

usually an additive in there that screws up various M-14P items like  

the pop-off valve.



In the absence of the radial-engine specific oil, use the 100 or 120  

(SAE 50 or 60) for break in (50 hours) and the W100 or 120 (AD)  

thereafter.



Have a great weekend. -Eric





On Sep 4, 2010, at 3:16 PM, Francois Davel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fdavel(at)senninger.com>



 Thanks Eric



 Here in South Africa, we do not get the Phillips Brand.



 There is the Mobil Multigrade 20W 50, that comes from he USA.



 Then we get the mono grades SAE 50 and 60



 I am using Straight 120 (SAE 60) right now and have enough for a  

 baout 10 hours.....after which I will have to change to Straight 100  

 ( SAE 100)



 Is this okay? what thoughts



 Cheers



 Francois



 --------

 Round Engines RULE!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311376#311376

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:22 am Post subject: Oil, again

Eric,

 Could you please describe the "pop off valve" in the M14 that  is affected by multi-grade oils?

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: Oil, again

I'm not talking about the 25-60 radial engine oil... I mean the 20-50 kind for flat engines, and I think the valve in question gets gummed up by the anti-corrosion additives (which the Phillips doesn't have). Was assuming it was the compressor pop-off, which seems to contain glycerine and foamed up oil. This warning came a while back from someone authoritative, although I don't remember which one (meaning you, George, Jill, Carl, Richard). Anyone want to claim attribution for that?





On Sep 5, 2010, at 10:17 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

[quote]Eric,

Could you please describe the "pop off valve" in the M14 that is affected by multi-grade oils?

Dennis

[quote]---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:44 am Post subject: Oil, again

OK.  Now I understand what pop-off valve you're talking  about.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: Oil, again

You'd agree that the other multi-grades are a no-no, right?

On Sep 5, 2010, at 10:43 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

[quote]OK.  Now I understand what pop-off valve you're talking about.

Dennis

[quote]---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: Oil, again

Definitely!



Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 5, 2010, at 8:52 AM, Eric Wobschall <eric(at)buffaloskyline.com (eric(at)buffaloskyline.com)> wrote:



[quote]You'd agree that the other multi-grades are a no-no, right?

On Sep 5, 2010, at 10:43 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

[quote]OK.  Now I understand what pop-off valve you're talking about.

Dennis

[quote]---

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