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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
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Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
[/url]Rick Girard
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi All,
The answer:
Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out well in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have seen. The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends and where a rebuild starts.
The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it says, an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket, floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You need only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, the bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a pressure test. That's it.
That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the parts to be replaced.
In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is mainly a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "O" rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side, which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing parts within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the update class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask why the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals that Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to be Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all know that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred.
I know there are some of the Experimental people that have done carb rebuilds, but this isn't to be done for the SLSA crowd.
Don't shoot the messenger here (no flaming arrows or tracer ammunition) I learned it in school, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754
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Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
[quote][b]
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
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Hi Rick,
Good article and a good point. If you do the 200 hr. inspection and look at the diaphragm you should see any corrosion on a slide, in the bowl or in the carb throat because you should be removing the slide which gives you a good visual picture of these parts.
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Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:44 pm Post subject: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
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|
Hi! Richard.
The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax 914!)
There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it’s appearance to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple in the engine installation manual.
It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a “catch bottle” so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation bottle. (later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl pressure stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake air filter after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
To continue …..my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from the oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.( the amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have, whilst stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below the oil surface.)
The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle to overflowing.
I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events to my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and the pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason his pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bottle the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling /top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the “catch” bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the sequence of events listed above.
Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as an unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further incidents.
Best regards
Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: 08 September 2010 03:48
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
[/url]Rick Girard
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi All,
The answer:
Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out well in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have seen. The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends and where a rebuild starts.
The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it says, an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket, floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You need only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, the bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a pressure test. That's it.
That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the parts to be replaced.
In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is mainly a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "O" rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side, which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing parts within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the update class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask why the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals that Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to be Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all know that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred.
I know there are some of the Experimental people that have done carb rebuilds, but this isn't to be done for the SLSA crowd.
Don't shoot the messenger here (no flaming arrows or tracer ammunition) I learned it in school, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754
===========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
0123456789
[quote][b]
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
|
|
Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
â– CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Take Care,
Rick Girard
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>wrote:
[quote] Hi! Richard.
The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a
situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax914!)
There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it’s appearance
to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple in
the engine installation manual.
It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore
that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a
“catch bottle” so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation bottle.
(later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl
pressure stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake
air filter after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
To continue …..my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from the
oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.( the
amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have, whilst
stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below the oil
surface.)
The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me
smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone
outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone
arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost
simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the
engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle
to overflowing.
I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events to
my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and the
pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said
above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason his
pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bottle
the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle
suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was
attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling
/top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the “catch”
bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the
sequence of events listed above.
Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as an
unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further
incidents.
Best regards
Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
------------------------------
*From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
Girard
*Sent:* 08 September 2010 03:48
*To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
<https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf>Rick
Girard
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi All,
The answer:
Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out well
in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and
some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have seen.
The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends and
where a rebuild starts.
The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it says,
an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket,
floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You need
only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, the
bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a
pressure test. That's it.
That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the
parts to be replaced.
In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is mainly
a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "O"
rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side,
which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing parts
within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the update
class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in
California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask why
the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax
refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals that
Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most
current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by
doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to be
Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all know
that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred
| | - The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
|
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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| Back to top |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
|
|
| rickofudall wrote: | Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
â– CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Take Care,
Rick Girard
|
Actually, I once got into an ugly fight on another list with a nutcase (or two, can't remember) who didn't believe this handling of the vent lines was actually spelled out in the manual. They thought my mod to route them into my air cleaners was some kind of unauthorized modification.
Nevertheless, this is actually a very little-known requirement (the vent lines have to be at the same atmospheric pressure as the intakes essentially). Most of the time, you don't see the effects too drastically at sea level; the lines are just routed down the sides of the carbs and the carbs work well enough.
But in my case, where I fly at 7000' to 10,000' MSL all the time, the effect of that was very noticeable, with a significant rich-running of the carbs. When I routed the lines inside my air filters to satisfy this requirement (best I could  ), the EGTS's all went up almost 100F back to a mostly-normal range.
Strange but true....
LS
| | - The Matronics RotaxEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
LS
Titan II SS |
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
|
|
Yes Rickš I accept what ROTAX SAY but the accident was to a Jabiru 3300 six cylinder and the Jabiru Installation Manual at my time made no comment about the pressure balance pipe, and it’s location seemed to suggest it was a fuel overflow pipe.
My original comments prevail and the accident investigation made no indications as to the pressure balance pipe or where it was routed or terminated.?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa originally with Jabiru 3300 ….Now with Rotax 914.
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: 08 September 2010 11:17
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
” CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Take Care,
Rick Girard
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)> wrote:
Hi! Richard.
The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax 914!)
There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it’s appearance to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple in the engine installation manual.
It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a “catch bottle” so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation bottle. (later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl pressure stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake air filter after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
To continue …..my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from the oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.( the amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have, whilst stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below the oil surface.)
The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle to overflowing.
I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events to my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and the pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason his pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bottle the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling /top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the “catch” bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the sequence of events listed above.
Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as an unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further incidents.
Best regards
Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: 08 September 2010 03:48
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
[/url]Rick Girard
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi All,
The answer:
Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out well in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have seen. The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends and where a rebuild starts.
The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it says, an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket, floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You need only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, the bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a pressure test. That's it.
That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the parts to be replaced.
In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is mainly a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "O" rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side, which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing parts within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the update class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask why the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals that Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to be Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all know that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred.
I know there are some of the Experimental people that have done carb rebuilds, but this isn't to be done for the SLSA crowd.
Don't shoot the messenger here (no flaming arrows or tracer ammunition) I learned it in school, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=311754#311754
===========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=========== <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
0123
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
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[quote][b]
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
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|
Hi Guys,
Don't use the "Quote" tab at the top of each post. This just adds to the length of the your post and makes reading and scrolling through the thread very long.
How about using the "Post Reply" tab at the top or the bottom of the page. It won't quote the entire thread every time and then make everyone read through very long post.
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
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Robert, My reason for posting the information about the Jabby carb corrosion
was that the corrosion is a problem common to all Bing carbs. I posted the
info from the Rotax Installation Manual following your post about the carb
venting because this is something Rotax has already addressed and this is
the Rotax Engine forum. Issues with Jabiru installations should be addressed
to either the factory or their distributors and posted to the Jabiru Engine
forum.
Rick Girard
2010/9/8 Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
[quote] Yes Rick I accept what ROTAX SAY but the accident was to a Jabiru 3300
six cylinder and the Jabiru Installation Manual at my time made no comment
about the pressure balance pipe, and it's location seemed to suggest it was
a fuel overflow pipe.
My original comments prevail and the accident investigation made no
indications as to the pressure balance pipe or where it was routed or
terminated.?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa originally with Jabiru 3300 ....Now with Rotax914.
------------------------------
*From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
Girard
*Sent:* 08 September 2010 11:17
*To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Robert, Per the 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
” CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Take Care,
Rick Girard
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
Hi! Richard.
The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a
situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax
914!)
There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it's appearance
to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple in
the engine installation manual.
It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore
that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a
"catch bottle" so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation
bottle. (later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl
pressure stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake air
filter after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
To continue .....my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from the
oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.(
the amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have,
whilst stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below the
oil surface.)
The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me
smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone
outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone
arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost
simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the
engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle
to overflowing.
I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events to
my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and the
pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said
above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason his
pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bottle
the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle
suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was
attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling
/top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the "catch"
bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the sequence
of events listed above.
Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as an
unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further
incidents.
Best regards
Bob Harrison Europa G-PTAG.
------------------------------
*From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard
Girard
*Sent:* 08 September 2010 03:48
*To:* rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Re: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question
Something else to look for when doing any carb checks.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
<https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf>Rick
Girard
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi All,
The answer:
Well this question is a little harder than others that are spelled out well
in the manuals. This one isn't as clear cut in black and white print and
some Rotax instructors teach it a little differently from what I have seen.
The Rotax manual doesn't really state where the 200 hr. inspection ends and
where a rebuild starts.
The 200 hr. is not the same as a rebuild. The 200 hr. is just what it says,
an inspection only and no parts replacement except maybe the carb socket,
floats or diaphragm and those few minor visible parts if necessary. You need
only to check the carb socket for cracks, carb diaphragm for splitting, the
bowl and the float level. Flush with a carb cleaner for any dirt and do a
pressure test. That's it.
That's pretty much all the inspection covers. It does not require all the
parts to be replaced.
In a rebuild you replace all the parts internally and the 200 hr. is mainly
a look and clean as need be on exposed parts. If you disturb any of the "O"
rings they should be replaced and that starts into the carb rebuild side,
which Line maint. can't do. The carb rebuild is removing and replacing parts
within the carb. We just went over all this with Eric Tucker in the update
class. I also just got off the phone with Jeremy McGregor of CPS in
California about this and he confirmed with me about both items. We ask why
the carb rebuild couldn't be moved to the Line maint. section, but Rotax
refuses because carb rebuilds are done so infrequently by individuals that
Rotax wants to make sure the people preforming a rebuild has the most
current training and continued experience. Yes, you can get in trouble by
doing some wrong things to the carb or not doing them.
Bottom line is Line Maint. can do a 200 hr. inspection, but you have to be
Heavy Maint. rated to do a carb rebuild.
It would be nice if every instructor were on the same page, but we all know
that this doesn't always happen. Sometimes the lines get a little blurred
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:09 am Post subject: Carb rebuild - Xtra credit question |
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Roger
I couldn't agree more! Very tedious having to scroll a long way, especially when some are "top headers" and some "Bottom"
Graham
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi Guys,
Don't use the "Quote" tab at the top of each post. This just adds to the length of the your post and makes reading and scrolling through the thread very long.
How about using the "Post Reply" tab at the top or the bottom of the page. It won't quote the entire thread every time and then make everyone read through very long post.
--------
Roger Lee
[quote][b]
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