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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:06 am Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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My attempt to get this message onto the Jabiru engines list failed probably
since I'm unsubscribed or probably I used an incorrect address.
It occurs to me that a number of Europa Owners are running with Jabiru.
Perhaps you could circulate my message and get the points taken up by the
FAA Investigation Branch? I leave it to you:-
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa 337 Now with Rotax 914
Hi!
I used to contribute to this list and have recently picked up a FAA accident
report concerning a Jabiru 3300 engine.
The guy who made this report available is a Rotax "buff" and even may be a
maintenance engineer.
The said report is at :-
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2010/Apr/10-01%5B1%5D.pdf
However I have to contribute my experience on this matter for what it's
worth to satisfy my personal conscience that I have made my findings
available to any other Jabiru Engine/Bing Carb users and so ensure as far as
possible all souls are availed of this information.
It is quite possible that the FAA Accident Investigation organization
already have applied this information content but it is also possible that
people are still flying with a potential installation time bomb.
My deliberations follow below I hope those responsible will take a close
look at the installations in their domain to ensure that they are flying
safe:-
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Robert C Harrison <ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
"Hi! Richard......
The symptoms of the Jabiru incident you publish here remind me of a
situation I had when I was test running mine (before I changed to a Rotax
914!)
There is a tiny brass nipple on the carb neck ( seeming by it's appearance
to call for a pipe to be attached ) there was no mention of this nipple in
the engine installation manual.
It looks like a carb float chamber overflow nipple. I reasoned therefore
that should fuel flow from it be likely then it should be directed into a
"catch bottle" so I put the pipe end into my oil breather separation bottle.
(later I think Jabiru issued an instruction that it was a fuel bowl pressure
stabilizing pipe and it should be directed into the carb intake air filter
after the filter / but before the carb intake.)
To continue :..my engine ran ok except I did get some oil spatter from the
oil catcher bottle and so put a loose fitting rag into the bottle neck.(
the amount of oil present in the bottle was minimal but I just may have,
whilst stuffing the rag into the neck, pushed the little pipe end below the
oil surface.)
The net result was on start up the engine ran rough and (unbeknown to me
smoked like a factory chimney for some time since I was working alone
outside the hangar ) I could not get a smooth running engine, someone
arrived and accused me of running up inside the hangar almost
simultaneously I had oil cover my screen from the engine compartment.
On stopping and further investigating I had massive fuel dilution to the
engine oil and the level was way over the top filling the breather bottle
to overflowing.
I sat and did a lot of head scratching and traced the sequence of events to
my stopping off the breather bottle with the rag. I removed the rag and the
pipe, changed the engine oil and the engine started flawlessly. As I said
above I eventually ran the pipe to new instructions.
If the unfortunate pilot had a similar installation and for some reason his
pressure balance pipe had been installed into the oil breather catch bottle
the same scenario would prevail. Why should the oil level in the bottle
suddenly increase? Well I discovered that the engine breather pipe was
attached to the neck of the oil filler/dip stick assembly and on filling
/top up of engine oil some would run down the breather pipe into the "catch"
bottle! So a simple top up of engine oil could have commenced the sequence
of events listed above.
Perhaps you would see that this info gets to the relevant authorities as an
unbiased contribution which if circulated will probably save further
incidents."
Needless to say the correspondent didn't wish to take the matter further
..wait for it ......because he is a Rotax man through and through!
So all he wanted to see was the Rotax publication section on carburetor
Installation the like of which I never saw during my Jabiru "infancy" but I
respect the fact that the Jabiru Installation Manual may include this
paragraph by now, and all is well so long as operators retro fitted the
pipes into the correct place.
Robert, Per the Rotax 912 Installation Manual Section 15.1.1, page 93:
CAUTION: The float chamber venting lines (3) lines have to be
routed into a ram-air and vacuum free zone or into the
airbox, according to the requirements and release of
BRP-Powertrain. See section 16. These lines must not
be routed into the slipstream or down the firewall.
Pressure differences between intake pressure and
pressure in the carburetor chambers may lead to
engine malfunction due to incorrect fuel supply.
Please someone take up the intent of this "chase" and see to it that the FAA
Accident Investigation people review the actual incident again in this
light.
Regards
Bob Harrison (G-PTAG Europa now with Rotax 914)
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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On Sep 9, 2010, at 4:03 AM, Robert C Harrison wrote:
| Quote: | My attempt to get this message onto the Jabiru engines list failed
probably
since I'm unsubscribed or probably I used an incorrect address.
|
Bob,
As your msg relates to a 6 month old notice of potential corrosion in
the Jab's single Bing carburetor, would not the potential for mischief
in the Rotax 9xx's twin Bings be doubled? Why no concern for that
while heaping warnings of dire consequences for Jab owners?
Fred
A194
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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Fred
You must divide by two for the rotax not multiply, so half the problem 
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 10, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sep 9, 2010, at 4:03 AM, Robert C Harrison wrote:
> My attempt to get this message onto the Jabiru engines list failed probably
> since I'm unsubscribed or probably I used an incorrect address.
Bob,
As your msg relates to a 6 month old notice of potential corrosion in the Jab's single Bing carburetor, would not the potential for mischief in the Rotax 9xx's twin Bings be doubled? Why no concern for that while heaping warnings of dire consequences for Jab owners?
Fred
A194
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hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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Hi! Fred.
Let's get it straight ...In no way was I furthering my now long forgotten
bad dream against Jabiru I was just trying to add a real time dimension to
the FAA investigation ....of course their corrosion findings should be given
every credence. My contribution was also to further an added safety
dimension concerning the damn carb bowl pressure balance pipe and its
correct place of termination because I recognize that the symptoms the
unfortunate soul encountered in the air were not unlike my experience on the
ground.
Yes...I must have been "wet behind the ears" to do what I did but I repeat
there was no mention of the pipe in my original copy of the installation
manual and that appertained to Engine No 004! What I should have done was
ask questions as to the correct installation position and then I would
probably have sparked the correct message being addressed by their manual
earlier. I take it you haven't noticed that new oil added can bugger off
down the breather pipe?
My sole concern here was that it may be the case that the accident aircraft
had this deficiency and it may have been missed by the FAA in their after
the event investigation but more importantly other operators may be flying
an incorrect installation oblivious as to the imminent possibility of engine
failure.
OK Rotax installations may have two locations for corrosion to develop, so
what, at least they have issued an SB on the matter I'm concerned with.
If you don't like what I said then that's your prerogative but ignore it at
your peril, but now even you won't do that so I've achieved something !
I rest my case with a clear conscience.
Regards to all
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
--
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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On Sep 11, 2010, at 2:15 AM, Robert C Harrison wrote:
| Quote: | OK Rotax installations may have two locations for corrosion to
develop, so
what, at least they have issued an SB on the matter I'm concerned
with.
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Bob,
As I understand your response to my question, you did not address the
Bing-in-the-Rotax because a Service Bulletin has been issued...fair
point...I wasn't aware of that...thank you for the clarification.
(It's also nice that the Rotax carries a spare Bing.)
| Quote: | If you don't like what I said then that's your prerogative but
ignore it at
your peril, but now even you won't do that so I've achieved
something !
I rest my case with a clear conscience.
|
I don't recall feeling any particular energy towards "liking" or "not
liking" what you said...as for my ignoring your concern at my peril,
my particular engine (being MPEFIed) is Bing-free...though other
gremlins undoubtably lurk within it.
Fly safe and happy landings,
Fred
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air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:35 am Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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Hi Jerry,
<<<<<You must divide by two for the rotax not multiply, so half the
problem>>>>>>
The reason for two carbs on the Rotax is not redundancy but
performance. I am pretty sure that if one carb fails completely on the
Rotax, the engine runs so rough that you had better stop it
immediately and land. Therefore the probability of engine failure due
to a carb problem on a Rotax is two times higher than on a Jabiru.
Regards
Remi
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rehn(at)rockisland.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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Yeah, I was just trying to lighten things up a bit with that suggestion. But I did own a Kitfox with a 912 that was set up with a design that could let the carbs shake loose and fall off the engine. They did come out with a fix. But I had one fall of while flying over water (very exciting I might add) and the engine ran very rough but I kept enough power and kept it running to get it safely to an airport. That's one of the reasons I love that engine it kept on going with one carb, basically half an engine. I have nothing against Jabs but I do like the two carbs. Fuel injection would be better!
Jerry
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 12, 2010, at 10:32 AM, Guerner Remi <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Jerry,
<<<<<You must divide by two for the rotax not multiply, so half the problem>>>>>>
The reason for two carbs on the Rotax is not redundancy but performance. I am pretty sure that if one carb fails completely on the Rotax, the engine runs so rough that you had better stop it immediately and land. Therefore the probability of engine failure due to a carb problem on a Rotax is two times higher than on a Jabiru.
Regards
Remi
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air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: Bing Carb Checks ----- FAA investigated fatal accident.. |
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Thank you Jerry, that is nice to know!
Remi
<<<<< and the engine
ran very rough but I kept enough power and kept it running to get it
safely
to an airport. That's one of the reasons I love that engine it kept on
going
with one carb, basically half an engine. >>>>
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