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Oil shut-off valve
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Vic

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:38 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Hello,

to stop oil draining into the crankcase I came to a solution which works great on the Yak 18T so far. As you can see on the photos, I added a ball valve into the feed hose to the oil pump on the right side of the fire wall where the hose forms a U-shape. The lever on the ball valve is connected to the lever of the petrol tap on the left side via push-pull rod, so when you close the petrol after engine shut-down, you shut the oil at the same time. No more need to drain the crank case before start. You just cannot forget to turn on the oil as you cannot miss that petrol has to be opened in the cockpit, as both valves are connected by pushrod. I added a safety spring to the ball valve, pulling in the "open"position, in case, something should break.

There may be the need for some minor re-routing of oil hoses for a straight pushrod between both valves but it can be done. I don´t know if this goes for 52s as well. Maybe there is need for an intermediate lever and two pushrods to clear obstacles, but the system seems reasonably failsafe to me.



Vic

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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:23 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Jim Kimball Enterprises in Zellwood, FL has been selling an  oil shut of kit for quite some time.  The valve interlocks with a  microswitch which is wired to the air start button/air start valve.  If the  valve is closed, the engine can not be started because the microswitch remains  engaged by the lever on the shut off valve.  http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/m14p.php   Slide down the page to the 6th item.

 Dennis

  

  

 [quote]   ---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I have also heard varying opinions about whether or not the fuel valve should be shut off regularly. Opinions?

On Sep 16, 2010, at 8:20 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

[quote]Jim Kimball Enterprises in Zellwood, FL has been selling an oil shut of kit for quite some time.  The valve interlocks with a microswitch which is wired to the air start button/air start valve.  If the valve is closed, the engine can not be started because the microswitch remains engaged by the lever on the shut off valve.  http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/m14p.php  Slide down the page to the 6th item.

Dennis

 

 

[quote]---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:12 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Before starting the engine after some rather extensive work, a good friend of mine was pulling the prop through when the engine started.  The prop struck him taking a good chunk out of the blade as well as his knee and leg.  The gent fell to the ground and the aircraft started rolling forward.  I was standing there and actually saw all this happen and ran out and stopped the aircraft from moving.  After he was pulled away by other folks at the airport I went to the cockpit and tried to shut down the engine.  Both MAGS were already OFF.  I then went to pull the fuel shut-off handle but it was actually tied to another handle marked OIL SHUT OFF.  So by pulling the fuel handle, I would also be shutting off the oil.  Not exactly the same design Vic has, but the same results.  



We all tend to think of things in our aircraft always working the way they should.  Obviously sometimes they don't.  Our M-14's are shut off  by turning off the mags.  The mags are turned off by providing a GROUND to a "P" lead.  All that needs to happen is for one of those wires to break and the engine will not be able to be shut down by the normal method.  Switch failure, wire failure, whatever.  The engine will not shut off.  This leaves the Emergency Fuel Shut-Off as the only real method of securing the engine.  However, when you pull this handle, the engine does not immediately shut off, it runs for awhile.  If you have your oil shut-off valve connected so that it also shuts off with the Emergency Fuel Handle, then you will be running your engine without oil.  



To finish my particular story, I did just that.  I pulled the shut-off handle out, the engine kept running and I then watched the oil pressure dropping to zero.  I shoved the handle back in because I just could not stand to ruin an engine.  Especially THIS engine.  



After chocking the airplane, I manually grounded the left mag which killed the engine.  The "P" lead grounding wire was open to the switch.  



Mark Bitterlich



P.s.  Dennis, I do not believe in pulling the emergency fuel shut off handle after every flight.  I personally believe that the pressure carb should have fuel to it at all times to help prevent diaphragms from drying out.  However, I do believe it testing it every once in awhile!    





--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:25 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I concur with the idea that it needs to be tested occasionally. I had one that the cable was binding up on so it would not completely close the valve so obviously the engine would not shut off when the T handle was pulled.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall

 Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:23 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve  

  

  

   

I have also heard varying opinions about whether or not the fuel valve should be shut off regularly. Opinions?    

       

On Sep 16, 2010, at 8:20 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:  

  



 

       

Jim Kimball Enterprises in Zellwood, FL has been selling an oil shut of kit for quite some time.  The valve interlocks with a microswitch which is wired to the air start button/air start valve.  If the valve is closed, the engine can not be started because the microswitch remains engaged by the lever on the shut off valve.  http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/m14p.php  Slide down the page to the 6th item.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

    

   

  [quote]    

---

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

Vic,



Who makes that valve you used?



Keith

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Fuel shut off - I am not aware of any reason or benefit to  pulling the fuel shut off after every flight.  But that is just my opinion  and only worth what you've paid for it.  You can verify the fuel will shut  off without running the engine.  Pull the fuel shut off handle to the  closed position.  Turn the primer pump knob to the left or system side and  pull the primer pump out.  Now pump the primer until you feel a significant  amount of back pressure.  At that point you will not be able to push the  primer pump back in.  While holding pressure on the primer pump, push the  fuel shut off handle forward.  The primer pump should immediately go  forward and bottom out at the instrument panel.  This tells you the fuel  can be shut off.

  

 If you can not build up back pressure with the fuel shut off  handle pulled to the rear and pumping the primer pump as described, either the  cable or the lever itself at the coarse fuel screen needs to be  adjusted.

  

 This should be a mandatory test during the annual condition  inspection.

  

 On the CJ you can do the same thing except use the wobble pump  handle.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I set the brake when I'm pulling through. At least, it helps the  

rolling forward factor.

On Sep 16, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 Before starting the engine after some rather extensive work, a good  

 friend of mine was pulling the prop through when the engine  

 started.  The prop struck him taking a good chunk out of the blade  

 as well as his knee and leg.  The gent fell to the ground and the  

 aircraft started rolling forward.  I was standing there and actually  

 saw all this happen and ran out and stopped the aircraft from  

 moving.  After he was pulled away by other folks at the airport I  

 went to the cockpit and tried to shut down the engine.  Both MAGS  

 were already OFF.  I then went to pull the fuel shut-off handle but  

 it was actually tied to another handle marked OIL SHUT OFF.  So by  

 pulling the fuel handle, I would also be shutting off the oil.  Not  

 exactly the same design Vic has, but the same results.



 We all tend to think of things in our aircraft always working the  

 way they should.  Obviously sometimes they don't.  Our M-14's are  

 shut off  by turning off the mags.  The mags are turned off by  

 providing a GROUND to a "P" lead.  All that needs to happen is for  

 one of those wires to break and the engine will not be able to be  

 shut down by the normal method.  Switch failure, wire failure,  

 whatever.  The engine will not shut off.  This leaves the Emergency  

 Fuel Shut-Off as the only real method of securing the engine.   

 However, when you pull this handle, the engine does not immediately  

 shut off, it runs for awhile.  If you have your oil shut-off valve  

 connected so that it also shuts off with the Emergency Fuel Handle,  

 then you will be running your engine without oil.



 To finish my particular story, I did just that.  I pulled the shut- 

 off handle out, the engine kept running and I then watched the oil  

 pressure dropping to zero.  I shoved the handle back in because I  

 just could not stand to ruin an engine.  Especially THIS engine.



 After chocking the airplane, I manually grounded the left mag which  

 killed the engine.  The "P" lead grounding wire was open to the  

 switch.



 Mark Bitterlich



 P.s.  Dennis, I do not believe in pulling the emergency fuel shut  

 off handle after every flight.  I personally believe that the  

 pressure carb should have fuel to it at all times to help prevent  

 diaphragms from drying out.  However, I do believe it testing it  

 every once in awhile!  





 --

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

No argument there.... but maybe not as a part of every shut down.

On Sep 16, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

[quote]I concur with the idea that it needs to be tested occasionally. I had one that the cable was binding up on so it would not completely close the valve so obviously the engine would not shut off when the T handle was pulled.

Doc

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall

Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:23 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

 

I have also heard varying opinions about whether or not the fuel valve should be shut off regularly. Opinions?

 

On Sep 16, 2010, at 8:20 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:





Jim Kimball Enterprises in Zellwood, FL has been selling an oil shut of kit for quite some time.  The valve interlocks with a microswitch which is wired to the air start button/air start valve.  If the valve is closed, the engine can not be started because the microswitch remains engaged by the lever on the shut off valve.  http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/m14p.php  Slide down the page to the 6th item.



Dennis



 



 



[quote]---

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Jesus.



Don't f--k with things if they aren't broke.



I'll stay with my stock Yak55 and just pull a lot of blades.    If I 

get too old or infirm to pull blades, it's time to sell her.



Hal



YAK55

N355YK



At 07:09 AM 9/16/2010, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, 

MALS-14 64E wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

Before starting the engine after some rather extensive work, a good 

friend of mine was pulling the prop through when the engine 

started.  The prop struck him taking a good chunk out of the blade 

as well as his knee and leg.  The gent fell to the ground and the 

aircraft started rolling forward.  I was standing there and actually 

saw all this happen and ran out and stopped the aircraft from 

moving.  After he was pulled away by other folks at the airport I 

went to the cockpit and tried to shut down the engine.  Both MAGS 

were already OFF.  I then went to pull the fuel shut-off handle but 

it was actually tied to another handle marked OIL SHUT OFF.  So by 

pulling the fuel handle, I would also be shutting off the oil.  Not 

exactly the same design Vic has, but the same results.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Hey the simple draining the sump into to a 5 gallon bucket after the day's

flying works too. Now it is a bitch when the hose gets knocked off the sump

drain port just after turning opening it though! Shit happens and that is a

mess I can clean up. 

Oil on the floor is better than overflow oil in the lower cylinder heads to

cause a hydraulic lock.

Remember, fluid in a U shaped capillary tube always seeks equilibrium.

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Sukhoi's don't have a parking brake.  Neither does my 50.    But I have toe hyd brakes on my 50 with Cleveland wheels and brakes. 



Mark

 



--

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

You are obviously not an ENGINEER.  Their motto is: "If it is not broken,

take it apart and fix it."



Gill



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Clevelands and hydraulic toe brakes?!! Tell me more off list.

Doc



--

Vic

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Oil shut-off valve

Hello ,



thank you all for your feedback about some side effects of my setup. Quite frankly, I only had in mind to prevent starting the engine with oil valve closed. And no, I did not think about an emergency shutdown in case a mag or two remained hot because of a broken earth connection. I will keep the oil valve anyway but am thinking of a way to close the fuel tap individually, but both valves to open with a mechanical linkage. I do not like an electric workaround of this problem, as some say, wires and switches do break. Anyway I keep you posted.



Vic

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

For a parking brake in my 50, I use something very simple: a velcro strap

(like the ones used to tie up network cables) with which I hold the brake. 

When ready to depart, I simply unlock the brake by removing the strap

(without undoing it) and then shift it on the stick. (If this is unclear I

'll make a photo and post it to the list). I leave it on the stick all the

time. It can't become an FOD while flying because your hand is in the way.



Jan



--

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

I'm not an engineer either. If I attempted half of the stuff guys in  

here are doing, my plane would wind up in a bean field. I try to stick  

with the stock setup wherever possible with a few no ground crew  

having conveniences (like intake tubes to a Curtis drain). Like Hal, I  

also live by: "When in doubt, pull more blades".

On Sep 17, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Gill Gutierrez wrote:



[quote] 



 You are obviously not an ENGINEER.  Their motto is: "If it is not  

 broken,

 take it apart and fix it."



 Gill



 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Great exercise also with pulling 70+ lbs 12 to 14 times then another 4 after

priming. That gets the juices flowing before that aerobatics.

Life is good!

Doc



--

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Well, I do have an MSNE, but I am a pilot too.

At 11:14 AM 9/17/2010, Gill Gutierrez wrote:

[quote]



You are obviously not an ENGINEER.  Their motto is: "If it is not broken,

take it apart and fix it."



Gill



--

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: Oil shut-off valve

Actually, "when in doubt"  pull out the spark plugs and let the oil drain.   It is actually quite easy to bend connecting rods just using the prop as a lever.  So it is actually not all just about how many times you pull the prop through, but also how you are holding it, where you are holding it, how hard you are pulling it, etc.  



Doc advocates letting it all come out of the sump drain. Others recommend fixing the ball check valve.  Others recommend an oil shut off valve.   



There's nothing wrong with oil shut off valves to the engine, regardless of what anyone might thing.  The A-26 Invader had electric oil shut off valves for both motors.  And... one recently had the circuit breaker pop, and the gents managed to ruin both engines on start.  And this was a VERY experienced crew.   



And a YAK-52 at New Bern had a guy bend the rod so bad with a hydraulic lock that it blow the rod right out the cylinder and ruined the case IN FLIGHT.  



I don't think it is the MOD that is bad, or any engineering type that designed it.  What typically happens is that the OPERATOR of the aircraft CHANGES the modification in one way or another in order to save money, or make what he or she feels is an "intended improvement".  Usually with parts from Autozone. 



After all, these aircraft are Experimental and we take advantage of that fact all the time.  Modifications are part of the nature of owning an Experimental Aircraft, at least in my opinion.  The alternative is having the FAA even MORE involved. 

Mark Bitterlich 



 



--- On Sat, 9/18/10, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



[quote] From: Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 Subject: RE: Oil shut-off valve

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Saturday, September 18, 2010, 4:49 PM

 

 "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 

 Great exercise also with pulling 70+ lbs 12 to 14 times

 then another 4 after

 priming. That gets the juices flowing before that

 aerobatics.

 Life is good!

 Doc

 

 --

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