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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

List members,  I have had many members ask me to bring this subject matter out in the

 open.  Plus, there are way too many people now, for me to reply to.  (approaching 30+)

 Here is what I have this far!!

 

  My initial thought was to discuss Scott's accident openly with this list, but then I thought

I'd be criticized by someone for acting like an investigator.  Well, I'm NOT an investigator,

but I certainly am curious about the facts that caused Scott's death, especially since I do

not want to duplicate them.

  Then, I thought maybe the subject would be best discussed privately between those only

who show an interest.  Last count, I've had about 14 responders, so maybe we should just

bring this out in the open.

 

  (I had the same concern regarding John Ratcliffe's accident a few months ago.  Yet, I didn't 

say anything, and John was soon forgotten, it appears.  I did some checking on his situation, 

and it seems he must have stalled near turning base to final, and nosed it in.)

 

  With regard to Scott, here is what I  have found out.  This is by NO means any kind of official

report, nor do I profess to have all the answers.  Additionally, I accept any and all new information

that may correct anything that I may misstate.

 

  A few days before Scott made his intitial flight, I asked him where he had his main wing's and

his h. stabilizers set at (since the Oshkosh photos made the h.s. look like they were too high)

His answer to me was " the main wing is set at where Bryan ((at) Kolb Aircraft) told him to set them."

He went on to say "the h. stabilizers are set like the factory recommends, but after he's flown

for awhile, he can adjust that setting later.  (I wish!!)

  So, at this point, as far as I know, he had the wing incidences and hor. stabilizers incidences set

according to the factory recommended locations!

 

  Next,  when I read one of the news reports from one of the local news sources, I saw where they 

said "according to the initial investigators, there didn't 'appear' to be anything wrong with the 

airplane.  That would seem to make sense, knowing what a perfectionist Scott was.

 

  The weather was basically calm, although at 8:00pm, when the accident happened, twilight was

setting.  Light, however, is NOT likely to be a factor.

 

  From discussing this situation with 'others', I have been told Scott had some introductory flights

in a MkIII.  Most likely, Scott would not have flown solo during this introductory flight.

  In one of the news articles,  it mentioned Scott got his Sport Pilot license last year.  This would 

indicate he probably didn't have a lot of flying time, especially when you consider he was spending

a lot of time trying to finish building his plane!  Scott was, you could say, 'a low-time' pilot.

 

  So, up to this point, the plane itself, the weather, the lighting, and the wing's incidences, don't appear

to have caused the accident.

 

  What's left??  According to Carol; Scott took off and flew around a couple of times, and when he came

in to land, it just nose-dived in.   It landed initially on the pacement, but continued to tumble onto the

grass.

  What does this tell us?  If Carol is complete in her description, and all Scott did was "fly around a 

couple of times" , and then try to land, this tells us he did NOT climb to altitude and explore the plane's

flying parameters.  It primarily tells us he did not find out the plane's EXACT stall speed, and now we'll 

never know!

 

  With the fact that Scott was;

A) a low-time pilot, and 

B) flying a plane that he may not have known the stall speed of

C) the mishap occurred at the runway threshold, coming in for his 1st landing

 

I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final, where it nose-dived into the runway, and rolled.

 

  If these events are indeed accurate and correct, I am very sad, because they seem to be so avoidable.  

I will miss Scott.  I'm am sorry he misjudged the situation, and let it get out of control (if these facts 

are accurate).

 

  Training, people, training!!  Having crashed an ultralight similar to these circumstances, all I can say

is these accidents can be avoided, or at least minimized with proper flight education.

 

  These are the facts as I've been able to acertain.  If anyone knows more, please share it with us. 

If I've mistated something, please correct the record.

 

Best regards to all,

Mike Welch

  

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Here's what I have gathered;

Thank you Mike,



I am sorry for Scott,but it does appear he made a terrible mistake,however,It's nice to here there doesn't appear to have been a fault of the aircraft.



These are fun airplanes to fly,but to an even greater degree because of there lack of weight to keep things going,you need to be very aware of your airspeed on final...where my 172 flies right through a wind gust,my M3X will stop flying and you can never forget that.



Thanks again for the information...every one CAN learn from this ,if they listen.



chris ambrose

M3X/Jabiru    150.3 hrs           2500. total

N327CS

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Here's what I have gathered;

Mike, I'm not an accident investigator either, but I do know that many fatal accidents occur due to stall-spins on landing. I was once told, "If there is any one thing to remember about flying, it's airspeed". This is especially true upon landing. It would be better to come in hot and use up runway than to bend up your airplane or hurt yourself. It's a fine line sometimes to slow it up or go off the end of a short runway. I tend to keep more speed than most pilots and maybe this has saved me a few times. Kolb's, like other light aircraft have more built-in drag than heavy and clean ones. They tend to lose speed more quickly. This means keeping the power on and nose down until it's on the ground. It's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift.



Ralph B

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

pc.king(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

Mike,

  

 Thank you. 

  

 Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a  webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling  case for maintaining airspeed on final because of the low mass and high  drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton  ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA  accidents  occur with GA pilots at the stick. 

  

 The webinar is archived at 

  

 http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars

  

 Peter C. King

  

 [quote]   ---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

Peter,

 

   Certainly there is no disputing that some GA pilots do seem to have trouble

 transitioning from the factory iron to the lighter, less mass SLA or lightplanes.

  

   However, in Scott's case, I'm afraid that "transitioning" wasn't the issue, because 

 since he only got his Sport Pilot license last year, he couldn't have had very many 

 hours in GA airplanes.  At least, that's what I'm led to believe.

   Additionally, Carol described him as 'coming in for a landing' and then he sort of 

 "nose-dived".  This scenario is much more indicative of an approach-to-landing-

 stall, rather than the typical GA to LSA failure to handle the mass differences

 between the two (at touchdown).

  

   Airspeed is one thing you cannot ignor when flying an airplane, lest the ground

 rise up and smite thee!!!

  

 Mike Welch

  

  

  

  

   .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   Mike,

  

 Thank you. 

  

 Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling case for maintaining airspeed on final because of the low mass and high drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA accidents  occur with GA pilots at the stick. 

  

 The webinar is archived at 

  

 http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars

  

 Peter C. King

  

 [quote] ---

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and ground speed, not airspeed. The danger is inexperienced pilots who get fixated on a point and pull back on the stick in an effort to maintain glide toward that point. The only thing that counts is airspeed, period.  As I told Mike when we talked on Sunday, I have a mantra that goes on in my head, and sometimes out loud, from the moment I pull power back from cruise to set up an approach. It's just two words, Hold 50. If you watched the video I made about the sight picture as it changes for flap settings, you can hear me over the sound of the 582 saying, "turning final, HOLD 50". It's my choice of approach airspeed for my Mk III based upon the stall speeds I documented. It makes absolutely no difference if I hold some power in reserve or close the throttle completely, it's HOLD 50 and it stays HOLD 50 until I pull back on the stick to round out and let her settle to the ground. If I'm a little too high on approach, which I actually prefer, I can slip Zulu Delta to lose altitude a little faster, and I still HOLD 50.

 



Rick Girard



On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:18 PM, PCKing <pc.king(at)comcast.net (pc.king(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]        Mike,

  

 Thank you. 

  

 Brian Carpenter (Rainbow Aviation) just did a  webinar titled "GA to LSA: Make a Safe Transition" He makes a compelling  case for maintaining airspeed on final because of the low mass and high  drag of the fat ultralight LSAs. He describes them as a cotton  ball compared to the GA golf ball. The highest percentage of LSA  accidents  occur with GA pilots at the stick. 

  

 The webinar is archived at 

  

 http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx?ch=ch_webinars

  

 Peter C. King

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:01 am Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

At 12:14 AM 9/17/2010, Richard Girard wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and ground speed, not airspeed... 	


 Whoa yourself.  A steady wind doesn't affect airspeed, true, but gusts can cause airspeed to RAPIDLY change... and if you're flying close to stall speed a gust from behind can put you _below_ stall speed in a heartbeat.



 -Dana

 

 --

  Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler.-- Albert Einstein    [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:36 am Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

[quote]   Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and    ground speed, not airspeed...>>

    

   Hi,

   I don`t think I will buy that. The wind gradient    will always produce a diminishing windspeed as you approach the ground. That    produces a lower airspeed and unless you put your nose down to compensate    you will run out of flying speed and STALL.

    

   Incidentally I do not agree that the Kolb is    `unforgiving`. On the contrary provided that it is properly rigged it will NOT    suddenly drop a wing and it will NOT suddenly drop its nose at the stall. At    least mine doesn`t, it just goes into a downward mush, nods gently and resumes    flying speed.  I wouldn`t want to hit the ground while that was happening    but I wouldn`t expect more than a busted undercart and a bad back. Of    course if I pulled back violently on the stick to get the nose up it    would be a different matter.

    

   Pat

    

    

[b]

h20maule(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me...



Sent from my iPhone



On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:33 AM, "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:



[quote]    	  Quote: 	
		     Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and    ground speed, not airspeed...>>

    

   Hi,

   I don`t think I will buy that. The wind gradient    will always produce a diminishing windspeed as you approach the ground. That    produces a lower airspeed and unless you put your nose down to compensate    you will run out of flying speed and STALL.

    

   Incidentally I do not agree that the Kolb is    `unforgiving`. On the contrary provided that it is properly rigged it will NOT    suddenly drop a wing and it will NOT suddenly drop its nose at the stall. At    least mine doesn`t, it just goes into a downward mush, nods gently and resumes    flying speed.  I wouldn`t want to hit the ground while that was happening    but I wouldn`t expect more than a busted undercart and a bad back. Of    course if I pulled back violently on the stick to get the nose up it    would be a different matter.

    

   Pat

    

    




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[b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

Dana, I fly in Kansas. Wind conditions are almost always gusty. It's nothing to be 15 to 20 gusting to 35. Makes very little difference because the gust builds and ebbs. Just like your airplane, the wind has inertia, too. Unless you're flying in the vicinity of thunderstorms producing microbursts, the wind is not going to gust RAPIDLY enough to put you into a stall.  You completely missed the point of my post. It's about holding an airspeed well above stall and keeping it until round out. 

Rick



On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 5:44 AM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   At 12:14 AM 9/17/2010, Richard Girard wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Whoa! Let's get something straight. Gusts and wind affect glide path and ground speed, not airspeed. 	


..

 Whoa yourself.  A steady wind doesn't affect airspeed, true, but gusts can cause airspeed to RAPIDLY change... and if you're flying close to stall speed a gust from behind can put you _below_ stall speed in a heartbeat.



 -Dana

 

 --

  Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler.-- Albert Einstein    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

At 09:46 AM 9/17/2010, Richard Girard wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dana, I fly in Kansas. Wind conditions are almost always gusty. It's nothing to be 15 to 20 gusting to 35. Makes very little difference because the gust builds and ebbs. Just like your airplane, the wind has inertia, too. Unless you're flying in the vicinity of thunderstorms producing microbursts, the wind is not going to gust RAPIDLY enough to put you into a stall. 

 You completely missed the point of my post. It's about holding an airspeed well above stall and keeping it until round out. 	


 Exactly.  Gusts ARE one major reason you should keep your airspeed well above stall, because a sharp edged gust CAN cause a significant sudden drop (or increase) in airspeed.  It's been over 30 years since I flew in the flat midwest, but here in the hilly northeast, 15to 20 gusting to 35 is NOT flyable weather for a very light airplane.



 -Dana

 --

  **FLASH** Eveready Bunny arrested, charged with battery.    [quote][b]

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: Here's what I have gathered;

Mike W:  << I am led to believe he stalled the plane on short-final >>  

Ralph B:  << It's all about speed. Without that, the wings don't lift. >>  

   

Kolb Friends –  

   

I believe Mike’s assessment is correct.  This is exactly what happened to me, on the maiden flight of my Mark-III.  With my GA flying background, I had no experience in these very light, low-inertia airplanes.  Pulled the power back, airspeed bled off, wings ran out of lift, and I pancaked in from about eight feet above the runway.    

   

Except I was luckier than Scott – my Kolb plopped onto the runway in a flat attitude, and all I did was wipe out my landing gear.  But the basic facts that appear to be emerging from this discussion are absolutely correct, and should be taken very seriously by all the new Kolb pilots: Get training in these slow, high-drag airplanes, and keep your speed up on final – all the way to within a foot or two of the runway.  

   

My thoughts and prayers go out to Carol, and the rest of Scott’s family.  

   

Dennis Kirby  

N93DK, “Magic Bike”  

Sandia Park, NM  

   

      [quote][b]

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Here's what I have gathered;

"The kolb stall is very unforgiving-trust me... "



h20maule,  Your statement is incorrect.  It should read: "The stall of my kolb is very unforgiving-trust me... ".  



I have never flown your kolb, but I have flown 2 MarkIIIs, 4 firestars and a Kolbra and none of them had unforgiving stall characteristics.  The worst one was mine when I had the VGs mounted too far back.  This was the only kolb I have flown that had a sharp stall break, but recovery was still quick, straightforward and uneventful.  Moving the VGs forward gave me back my gentle airplane.



Unforgiving is a pretty subjective term.  Can you describe what it is  about stalls in your kolb that makes them less than desirable?  Maybe there is something unique about your plane that can be changed to improve its handling?

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Here's what I have gathered;

The Kolb will stall VERY easily compared to most sport aircraft.  The high thrust line of the Kolb MK III assures that the Kolb will tend to pitch up as soon as you pull the power off, the very high drag and low mass of the Kolb MK III will assure that the Kolb will bleed its speed off almost instantly once you pull off the power.   Combine the two, a pitching up moment, and an almost instantaneous loss of speed and you have something that is guaranteed to kill a pilot that is not prepared for it, or one that has been flying other types of aircraft.  I do not consider this a problem at all, dealing with these characteristics is second nature to me and I do not even have to think about it...  But I have no illusions about this either, this characteristic would be a HUGE surprise and most likely kill a pilot that had been flying other tractor type aircraft.  We would be doing any new Kolb pilot a life saving favor to make him very aware of these things before his first flight rather than being in denial about it.



The Kolb has a very gentle stall, but if you are not experienced in a Kolb, it will take you into that gentle stall very very quickly when the power is pulled off.  Having a gentle stall is not much of a consolation when you are 30 feet over the runway, hitting the ground in a stall can kill you weather the stall was gentle or not...



My MK III Xtra would be very difficult to fly with the Horizontal tail incidence set so high on the tail boom.  Mine MK III Xtra flys with the leading edge of the horizontal stab set to the middle of the boom.   My wings, boom etc, are set exactly per the Kolb specs, to 1/10 of a degree according to my very accurate digital level.   If Scott had an out of trim condition, and was not experienced in flying a Kolb, it is no surprise that his first flight ended the way it did.  



So there are two things to learn here.  First have an experienced pilot fly any new Kolb on its first flight, it may be very very difficult.  Second, before a new pilot flys a Kolb, he should have sufficient instruction, and should be made WELL AWARE of how quickly he will run out of speed once the power is pulled off.  The Kolbs will fly well, and are a lot of fun, relaxing, and safe when you know how to fly them, but they are NOT easy to fly, especially for pilots of tractor type aircraft that will not be expecting the pitch up combined with instant loss of airspeed when the power is reduced.



If we can get this information out, we can help avoid any repeats of this type of accident in the future.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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