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Trutrak auto trim

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dlm34077

Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: AZ

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

Just talked to Zak and determined the  following.

  

 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto  trim module reverts to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though  no auto trim exists.

  

 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage  to the trim servo but pulses the servo at standard voltage.

  

 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse  rate.

  

 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo  is unknown when connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim  direction depending on the hook up of the system.

  

  

 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is  disconnected and a new short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub.  Additionally another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch  servo connection. 

   [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim     begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad     that they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons?  Does the     airplane get so far out of trim that the AP kicks offline?  Is all     this cost, complexity, and installation time necessary???

     Just askin'.

     Linn

     

     On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:     [quote]                            Just talked to Zak and determined           the following.

        

       1. when the AP is OFF or is not           powered, the auto trim module reverts to manual trim and           internally reconnects the lines as though no auto trim exists.

        

       2. The auto trim does not lower           the input voltage to the trim servo but pulses the servo at           standard voltage.

        

       3. The rheostat on the trim box           changes the pulse rate.

        

       4. the cutting of the power wires           to the trim servo is unknown when connecting, the switch on           the box allows reversal of the trim direction depending on the           hook up of the system.

        

        

       5. The original 9 pin dub to the           pitch servo is disconnected and a new short cable is made to           connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally another short dsub           harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo           connection. 

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

Yes, it does get out of trim and kicks off.  Has happened to me once or twice.  It happens when things get real busy and you are using the auto pilot to help manage the work load……thus when you need it the most….it adds to the work load.  

   

Now to be clear.  The autopilot does not disengage, just the servo.  It disengages for a second and then tries again.  A little bit of trim in the right direction and everything is fine again.  

   

I think I am going to add the TT autotrim to my annual wish list.  When I am a couple of months out from the annual I will have to decide.  This will have to compete with the other item on the list.  Upgrade of one of my GRT screens…..  

     

Rene' Felker  

N423CF  

801-721-6080  

  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters

 Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:11 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Trutrak auto trim  

  

  

   

All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons?  Does the airplane get so far out of trim that the AP kicks offline?  Is all this cost, complexity, and installation time necessary???

 Just askin'.

 Linn

 

 On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:     

Just talked to Zak and determined the following.  

    

   

    

1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto trim exists.  

    

   

    

2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo but pulses the servo at standard voltage.  

    

   

    

3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.  

    

   

    

4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim direction depending on the hook up of the system.  

    

   

    

   

    

5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo connection.   

   	  Quote: 	
		     	
  

    	  Quote: 	
		    	
[/b][/quote]http://forums.matronics.com[/url]         - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b] [b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

The complexity is not for me; I can do all I need  with a panel mounted rocker switch accessible from either seat. My consideration  is for my wife who is not a pilot. She  can be taught to land the aircraft  in an emergency but the Cheltons and the Digiflite II VSGV and auto trim should  make an incapacitated pilot incident approach to landing in any weather less  worrisome

 [quote]   ---

Robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

I would go so far as to say a runaway trim in the 10 may not be survivable. I have seen how difficult the plane was to hold straight & level with trim at a substantially out of trim configuration but not nearly maxed out of trim setting. It was all I could do to control the 10 at the relatively low speeds of take off. If the same thing were to happen at cruise speed it would be VERY ugly.  

For  the money spent a speed sensitive trim adjustment combined with a runaway trim safety circuit represent the best insurance policy for this type of issue IMHO. I own the Safety Trim but the VP sounds like a nice option too.   

I recall Tim’s write up being substantially influential on the topic.   

   

Robin  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Linn Walters

 Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:11 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Trutrak auto trim  

  

  

   

All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons?  Does the airplane get so far out of trim that the AP kicks offline?  Is all this cost, complexity, and installation time necessary???

 Just askin'.

 Linn

 

 On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:     

Just talked to Zak and determined the following.  

    

   

    

1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto trim exists.  

    

   

    

2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo but pulses the servo at standard voltage.  

    

   

    

3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.  

    

   

    

4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim direction depending on the hook up of the system.  

    

   

    

   

    

5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo connection.   

   	  Quote: 	
		      	
  

   ator to browse[/b][/quote] /b>[/quote] 10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/b]===================[/quote] ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com[/b][/quote] =====================[/b][/quote]

 =   --> http://w===[/b] [b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

Linn,

I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and

REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use.  The REL-1's

are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is

just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.

So, to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses

the real problem issues with the trim system.  That one

change in itself would make everything else trivial.

Now for Auto-Trim, as it seems, everyone who has it, loves

it.  I don't have it.  I don't even miss it now and no, I get

no AP kick-offs or anything like that.  I'd have to say that

I'm 100% satisfied NOT having it.  But, if those people

like it so much, it makes me curious enough to throw away

some money to try it out....IF it won't compromise anything.

I really don't see any need for it AT ALL, except for

climbs and descents.  In cruise I simply never have a problem.

Now based on the stuff David just got from Zack at TruTrak,

I'm back on the fence again where I may not want Auto-Trim.

Here's why....

To his point #1, when the AP is off, the module internally

reconnects to the lines as if no auto-trim exists.  This

implies that there is ANOTHER set of relays in that box.

K.I.S.S. is my thought....ONE MORE set of relays that can

fail/stick? Hmmmm.  Even if they're solid state, which they

likely are, it's one more layer of complexity.

Continuing to #2, if it is pulsing the servo at standard

voltage, then now I think about how it integrates with

Safety Trim, I can see the potential for Safety Trim's

3-second-timeout being defeated.  Maybe not, because

Bob has said that it takes XX milliseconds of button

release to re-set the 3-second timer.  But if it's pulsed,

I'd want to know I still can only have it run 3 seconds.

It is VERY unlikely that auto-trim will ever have to

run more than 3 seconds to do it's job, but I still

want the timeout.

#3 actually sounds good.  If you already have Safety-trim

in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high

pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that

Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the

3-second timeout still stays in effect.  What it does

is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim

is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use

THAT speed control.

Thinking through #4 and #5, in my case, my Safety-Trim

box is under the panel, and the servo of course is in

the tail.  To accomodate interconnecting them

with things like Safety-Trim's "reversal" switch and

stuff, it may involve quite a bit of wiring to be

pulled from panel to tail.  I can't really say that

I'm willing to do it if I have to pull more than 1 or

2 wires to the tail.....I have a couple spares run, but

I'm tired of piling in more stuff, and VERY tired of

removing side panels by the seats just to get more wires

back there.  So I'd have to do a thorough review of

the wiring diagram before I'd go forward with it.

It would have to be pretty simple before I'd do it.

And I don't have really any room for the Auto-Trim box

under the panel if I want to keep it near the safety trim box.

Either way, I will not do auto-trim if it means I

lose anything that Safety-Trim offers.  THAT is the

one thing I think that everyone (other than vertical

power users) should have.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim

 begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that

 they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so

 far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity,

 and installation time necessary???

 Just askin'.

 Linn

 On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:

> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.

> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts

> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto

> trim exists.

> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo

> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.

> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.

> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when

> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim

> direction depending on the hook up of the system.

> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new

> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally

> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch

> servo connection.

> *

>

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

I agree completely.  The REL-1 is bad news.  My dad had the same situation that was mentioned where he could trim one way, but the other way was intermittent.  He would try trimming a little the way that would work and then often it would start working the other way.  One day, it didn't.  It was all he could do to get the plane on the ground and his arm was sore, IIRC, for a while.  We might be the ones that brought up the REL-1 issue back in those days.  Definitely change that out for the REL-2 if nothing else.  I really like the VP system because if the switch somehow fails, you can control the trim from the VP-200 screen.

We have also had experience with the servo letting go when the trim had was accidentally held (pre VP days) until the servo let go (pre high-torque servo days, but have heard that it was worse after the high-torque servo was installed).

I can't talk much to the auto-trim, except the one guy that I have talked to who installed it loves it.

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

C: 352-427-0285

F: 815-377-3694

On Sep 22, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Linn,

 I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and

 REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use.  The REL-1's

 are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is

 just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.

 So, to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses

 the real problem issues with the trim system.  That one

 change in itself would make everything else trivial.

 Now for Auto-Trim, as it seems, everyone who has it, loves

 it.  I don't have it.  I don't even miss it now and no, I get

 no AP kick-offs or anything like that.  I'd have to say that

 I'm 100% satisfied NOT having it.  But, if those people

 like it so much, it makes me curious enough to throw away

 some money to try it out....IF it won't compromise anything.

 I really don't see any need for it AT ALL, except for

 climbs and descents.  In cruise I simply never have a problem.

 Now based on the stuff David just got from Zack at TruTrak,

 I'm back on the fence again where I may not want Auto-Trim.

 Here's why....

 To his point #1, when the AP is off, the module internally

 reconnects to the lines as if no auto-trim exists.  This

 implies that there is ANOTHER set of relays in that box.

 K.I.S.S. is my thought....ONE MORE set of relays that can

 fail/stick? Hmmmm.  Even if they're solid state, which they

 likely are, it's one more layer of complexity.

 Continuing to #2, if it is pulsing the servo at standard

 voltage, then now I think about how it integrates with

 Safety Trim, I can see the potential for Safety Trim's

 3-second-timeout being defeated.  Maybe not, because

 Bob has said that it takes XX milliseconds of button

 release to re-set the 3-second timer.  But if it's pulsed,

 I'd want to know I still can only have it run 3 seconds.

 It is VERY unlikely that auto-trim will ever have to

 run more than 3 seconds to do it's job, but I still

 want the timeout.

 #3 actually sounds good.  If you already have Safety-trim

 in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high

 pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that

 Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the

 3-second timeout still stays in effect.  What it does

 is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim

 is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use

 THAT speed control.

 Thinking through #4 and #5, in my case, my Safety-Trim

 box is under the panel, and the servo of course is in

 the tail.  To accomodate interconnecting them

 with things like Safety-Trim's "reversal" switch and

 stuff, it may involve quite a bit of wiring to be

 pulled from panel to tail.  I can't really say that

 I'm willing to do it if I have to pull more than 1 or

 2 wires to the tail.....I have a couple spares run, but

 I'm tired of piling in more stuff, and VERY tired of

 removing side panels by the seats just to get more wires

 back there.  So I'd have to do a thorough review of

 the wiring diagram before I'd go forward with it.

 It would have to be pretty simple before I'd do it.

 And I don't have really any room for the Auto-Trim box

 under the panel if I want to keep it near the safety trim box.

 Either way, I will not do auto-trim if it means I

 lose anything that Safety-Trim offers.  THAT is the

 one thing I think that everyone (other than vertical

 power users) should have.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

 On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

>  All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim

> begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that

> they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so

> far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity,

> and installation time necessary???

> Just askin'.

> Linn

> 

> On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:

>> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.

>> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts

>> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto

>> trim exists.

>> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo

>> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.

>> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.

>> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when

>> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim

>> direction depending on the hook up of the system.

>> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new

>> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally

>> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch

>> servo connection.

>> *

>>

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

I called Zak to confirm; the relays are electronic switches, not mechanical 

ones. I also discussed with Ray Allen and the standard time from end to end 

on the trim servo is 19 seconds. It seems to me that if the trim runs away 

the first action is a pull of the trim breaker.

---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

On 9/22/2010 11:40 AM, Tim Olson wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		  -->       RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> (Tim(at)myrv10.com)       

       

       Linn,       

       I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and       

       REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use.  The REL-1's       

       are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is       

       just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.       

     	
     Thanks for that analysis Tim.

     Robin wrote:

     I       would go so far as to say a runaway trim in the 10 may not be       survivable. I       have seen how difficult the plane was to hold straight & level       with trim at       a substantially out of trim configuration but not nearly maxed out       of trim       setting. It was all I could do to control the 10 at the relatively       low speeds       of take off. If the same thing were to happen at cruise speed it       would be VERY ugly.

     

     This begs another question:  Is the trim that powerful that pulling     (or pushing) on the stick is a major effort?  It may be that the     control arm needs to be shorter.  After all, the trim is only to     push the elevators a little, not fly the airplane!

     

      	  Quote: 	
		  So,       to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses       

       the real problem issues with the trim system.  That one       

       change in itself would make everything else trivial.       

     	
     Because of the sticking/inop relays, or the speed?  Both?

     snip

      	  Quote: 	
		  #3       actually sounds good.  If you already have Safety-trim       

       in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high       

       pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that       

       Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the       

       3-second timeout still stays in effect.  What it does       

       is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim       

       is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use       

       THAT speed control.       

     	
     Now we're back to the speed ...... and the ability to control how     much the trim changes with each 'blip' of the trim button.  Also the     ability to control the airplane with full trim.  Changing the length     of the arm would ameliate both concerns.  Thoughts?

     Linn

     snip

     [quote]Tim       Olson - RV-10 N104CD       

       do not archive       

       

       

       On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:       

        	  Quote: 	
		    All this talk of auto trim, manual trim,         safety trim and slow trim         

         begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad         that         

         they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane         get so         

         far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost,         complexity,         

         and installation time necessary???         

         Just askin'.         

         Linn         

         

         On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:         

          	  Quote: 	
		  Just talked to Zak and determined the           following.           

           1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module           reverts           

           to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though           no auto           

           trim exists.           

           2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim           servo           

           but pulses the servo at standard voltage.           

           3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.           

           4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown           when           

           connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim           

           direction depending on the hook up of the system.           

           5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected           and a new           

           short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub.           Additionally           

           another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to           pitch           

           servo connection.           

           *           

           

         	
       	
       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

     [b]

Robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

I doubt that one is ever at one end of the  trim cycle for it to take 19

seconds to get to the other end of the trim cycle. So cut that time in

half ~10 seconds then understand it takes 2-3 seconds to realize what is

happening 7 seconds left then know at that point you are pushing or

pulling on the stick ever harder and harder to keep level... tic... tic...

tic and one has eaten up another several seconds which gets you right near

the end of the trim travel before most pilots (my speculation) have the

wherewithal to think about, locate and then physically pull the correct

breaker. Game over???

I will agree that the pilot still has plenty of time to tell his

passengers how sorry he is for not installing a safety trim system...

GRIM...



Robin



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

 	  Quote: 	
		   Because of the sticking/inop relays, or the speed? Both?


	


Both.  I'd have to go re-read what I wrote when I took notes

before, but in cruise at full speed trim, in the RV-10,

something like 1-2 seconds of nose-up trim will likely

pull > 4G's on the up pull.  So pulling a breaker in

cruise isn't going to happen fast enough, if you have full

speed trim.  With Safety Trim, slowed down, the 3 second

timeout is long enough that you can stick the switch for

a full 3 seconds and not have an airplane that bends the

wings.  It will be pitched up quite a bit, but with standard

full-speed trim, I believe that if you did something stupid

like let some kids feet/books/body parts lay on that

stick hat switch, and they gave it full nose up trim

at full speed, you would likely bend the plane or maybe

remove the wings within probably 3-4 seconds.

If you catch it in time and fight it with a SUPER strong

push, you may have a chance....I don't know, but you'd

have to be very on your game.

Tim

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

Well now after reading these posts I have ordered and returned the AutoTrim 

THREE times!

Just kidding



---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

pilotdds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: Trutrak auto trim

I confess I haven't read all the posts regarding the auto pitch trim from tt.My first experience with it in 2006 was very negative.Most autopilots will disable the auto pitch and allow pilot override with a control wheel or stick mounted switch-the trutrak system at least how it was wired by aerotrnics does not.On top of that I had one of the early sorcerer autopilots without the torque enhancer's which was virtually unusable with the autotrim.It would constantly be out of trim and after a bit of a wild ride it would kickoff.Since then I disabled the autotrim with a jumper per tt and installed the torque enhancer,it has operated flawlessly since using manual trim,it couples approaches and flys the airplane-I still need to send it to trutrak to fix a intermittent funky display did have the original ray allan relay go out and had to fly the airplane home out of trim 200 miles at 90 kts-slowest flight in the 10,I cant help but wonder what effect this would have had if the auto trim was still enabled .Having said all that I am going to again try the auto pitch trim on another project as I am a slow learner. Jim 728DD

   --

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