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Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

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longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Question,



I just bought the VTACHGEN transducer from Van's. It comes with nothing

but a plastic bag. Does anyone know what the pulses/rev value are for

this item when used on a 4 cylinder engine? I need to setup my Dynon 180

to accept.



Thanks,



Glenn

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

At 10:14 AM 9/23/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Question,



I just bought the VTACHGEN transducer from Van's. It comes with nothing

but a plastic bag. Does anyone know what the pulses/rev value are for

this item when used on a 4 cylinder engine? I need to setup my Dynon 180

to accept.


	


    Excellent question! It's unfortunate that Van's

    does not appear to publish the installation/data

    manuals for various products on their website.

    It's almost an imperative these days that if one

    wishes to reduce the expense of printing, inventory,

    shipping and customer service issues for documents,

    you post them.



    We stopped shipping any paperwork with our products

    some years ago . . . but since they're ALWAYS ordered

    from our website, you can get the manual BEFORE you

    buy just to make sure it's something you WANT to by.

    When you DO buy it, you're already educated as to its

    function and installation.



    You may have to call the factory.  You might make

    the constructive suggestion that scanning and

    posting of all paperwork associated with their

    inventory would save EVERYBODY a lot of time.

   Bob . . .

Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:29 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Don't make this harder than it needs to be. Wiring is red +12v. Black to ground and white is the signal wire. Whatever device you hook it to is where you make the settings which in the case of the Grand Rapids EIS has the settings in it's manual.  The settings with the EIS are for 4 Cycle or 2 cycle. 



Then when you start the engine look at the tach and see if the rpm looks right. It if doesn't will will probably be off by a factor of two. Check the display device's manual to see how to correct that. 



I have the device in my RV-8 and it only took a minute to set up in the EIS 



Sent from my iPad

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Thanks - yeah, nothing hard about it at all. So, what's the setting? You

can't tell me this is a guessing game? Ok, I've got 10 fingers to go.

The point is this should be published somewhere.  Sure, I guessed black

was ground and red was power. Got that part down quickly.



Seems like all the Van's folks use the EIS 4k, I'm using the Dynon 180

which is similar but different. 



Glenn E. Long

--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12



 Seems like all the Van's folks use the EIS 4k, I'm using the Dynon 180

 which is similar but different.



    What you're needing is the SCALE FACTOR for the transducer

    in pulses per revolution of the engine crankshaft. No doubt

    the setup instructions for the Dynon will tell you what

    calibration code or dip-switch setting to use for that

    particular transducer scale factor.



    Unless someone on the list has installed that combination

    of hardware items or incidental access to those two values

    you're going to have to do some legwork. Does the

    transducer have a brand and part number on it?



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1924
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Van's support might offer some advice on the Pulse/RPM output of the VTACHGEN, which depends on the engine and gear ratio.  You probably have the FlightDEK-D180 Installation Guide and have read the tach section on page 6-8.  http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Install_Guides/FlightDEK-D180%20Installation%20Guide.pdf

Without VTACHGEN documentation, the easiest solution might be to set the D-180 parameters by trial and error.  The pulses/RPM ratio is most likely a whole number multiple of the actual RPM like Bubblehead said.  After setting up the D-180 to a reasonable RPM display, the RPM could be verified using a portable optical tachometer if desired.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:51 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Bob,  

   

I got their website from Van’s, http://www.instrumentsales.com/ Vans could not give me any additional documentation. The website is rather limited. The way the Dynon doc reads is simply to set the pulses/revs to your particular equipment. I talked to Dynon and they admitted that this combination has been used before (and recommended because they don’t sell an RPM transducer) but they do not document or support it directly.  

   

Yup, looks like a little experimenting is in order. I’ll post my findings to Van’s and the list as to make life a bit easier for others in the future.  

   

Thanks  

   

Glenn  

   

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

 Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:57 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12  

  

  

   



 Seems like all the Van's folks use the EIS 4k, I'm using the Dynon 180

 which is similar but different.

 

    What you're needing is the SCALE FACTOR for the transducer

    in pulses per revolution of the engine crankshaft. No doubt

    the setup instructions for the Dynon will tell you what

    calibration code or dip-switch setting to use for that

    particular transducer scale factor.

 

    Unless someone on the list has installed that combination

    of hardware items or incidental access to those two values

    you're going to have to do some legwork. Does the

    transducer have a brand and part number on it?

 

 

   

  Bob . . .    	  Quote: 	
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Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

The answer may show up here:



http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=471022#post471022

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

I post this occasionally when this topic pops up. This is a divide-by-two rpm converter for anyone interested.



Read this topic online here:

      

      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298338#298338

      

      

      Attachments: 

      

      http://forums.matronics.com//files/tach_adapter_181.pdf

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

If you'll go to the thread in my last posting you'll see this response from "dynonsupport."



 	  Quote: 	
		  "I seem to remember it being 1 PPR from past customers using it.

No harm in firing up the engine with it not set correctly. It will be pretty obvious if it is off, since your engine will be at a nice idle and will read 350 or 1400 even though it's at 700.?" 	




So Glenn, next time how about leaving the sarcastic comments off the forum when someone is trying to help you.



 	  Quote: 	
		  "Thanks - yeah, nothing hard about it at all. So, what's the setting? You 

can't tell me this is a guessing game? Ok, I've got 10 fingers to go. 

The point is this should be published somewhere. Sure, I guessed black 

was ground and red was power. Got that part down quickly. 



Seems like all the Van's folks use the EIS 4k, I'm using the Dynon 180 

which is similar but different. 



Glenn E. Long " 	




This really isn't hard.  You are making it more difficult than it needs to be and apparently you just want people to hand you the answer and do all your thinking for you.  Lots of people have installed the 180 and apparently they figured it out.



And gee, I think we all knew the 180 is not the EIS 4000.

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Thanks John,



I was just keeping in step with the vein of the mentality of the

original response. I will definitely post my results which seemed a

reasonable request in the first place. 



Glenn E. Long



--

Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Gosh.  I feel so chastised.



You're welcome for the help by the way.  Try 1 pulse per revolution (PPR).

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

At 03:12 PM 9/29/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Gosh.  I feel so chastised.



You're welcome for the help by the way.  Try 1 pulse per revolution (PPR).


	


   I'd be surprised if it were that low a number. When

   sampling data for processing and then working with

   the result to do something useful (like put numbers

   on a screen) in real time you would like to have the

   highest practical number of samples/second. I've

   designed components of several tach systems, one of

   the first being for Bonanzas and Barons when they

   went to the "turbine style", 2-inch instruments. As

   I recall, the transducer we built had 8 magnets flying

   past a hall-effect transducer.



   There ARE numerous techniques for resolving engine

   RPM from about ANY number of pulses per revolution

   but the lower you go, the more "wiggle" you get in

   the display  . . . or if you filter the wiggle out,

   the display lags several seconds behind real numbers

   as you try to adjust RPM.



   It's VERY likely that the transducer in question is

   a hall device which means you can hook it up with a

   simple power supply and voltmeter on the bench and

   just count the transitions as you rotate the shaft.



   The sad feature in this discussion is that well

   known and highly respected suppliers of goodies to

   the OBAM aviation community cannot tell you anything

   about the device they sold you. Lest anyone think

   I'm picking on Van, know that the problem is pandemic

   in the aviation community. Even the "big guys" suffer

   from the malady.

   Bob . . .

Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Bob,



While I agree with all of your logic, Dynon Support says that the setting "1 PPR" will work.  It seems like before we go through lots of bench testing and hassle we should at least give that setting a chance.  After all, this is just RPM.  We know that a Lyc should idle at about 600 to 1000 rpm.  We would quickly know if it is off by 2 or by 1/2 or is completely bogus.  For instance, if the device was putting out 360 pulses per rev (1 per degree) we would see the Dynon display 360000 at 1000 actual rpm.



I think too that perhaps we are thinking that this is a position encoder with many pulses per revolution.  It is not a position encoder, just a simple revolution encoder that is used on a great many tachometers on many different vehicles.



Lots of people use the Dynon 180 and apparently have solved this riddle.  I think we're making it harder than it needs to be.  We are solving a question that does not even need to be answered.

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

Last edited by Bubblehead on Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total

Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

Here are some links that may provide some clues.



Here is a manufacturer of a tach drive unit that appears to be identical in appearance to what Vans and others sell.  Perhaps someone could contact them and see if they supply Vans and then get a data sheet.

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=109/category_id=311/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd109.htm



Here's a source

http://www.phoenixtuning.com/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_34&products_id=459&zenid=aov3bkbts67jf26s7eenvttqa2



One on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DAKOTA-DIGITAL-GM-8K-PULSE-GENERATOR-SENDER-SEN-01-1-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ370370121423QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories



A data sheet (no info on pulses)

http://www.dakotadigital.com/PDF/SEN-01-1.PDF



Another source

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DAK-SEN-01-1/



Depending on what source you look at they say it is either 8 pulses or 8000 pulses per revolution.



I've looked through all my pictures of the encoder I installed on my -8 and I cannot see a model number.



The setting that works on my EIS (yes, I know it's not a 180) is "4".



I hope some of this helps.

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

PhilCobbin

Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 1
Location: Rimrock,AZ

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Vans RPM Transducer IE VTACHGEN 12

If you search around the Van's website there are installation notes on the various guages they sell and a drawing showing how they are typically wired.



If you put say, 5 volts (instead of 12v) and slowly rotate the spindle on the sensor you will see it generate 8 steps of 4.26 volts.  If you hook it up to 12 volts, you'll get comparable results.  Since the sensor is typically attached to the camshaft, there are 4 steps from the unit per crankshaft revolution.



attached is a jpeg of a digital tach setup I'm breadboarding for my rv7 using the little Italian arduino boards.



The van's gauge if you take it apart and peruse the circuit board you will find it uses a frequency to voltage chip to drive the guage.  



Sorry about the size of the jpeg... 



Phil

2010-11-30-rv7-dig-tach-02s.jpg

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